The hatred of boot scooting

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Hanzou

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Decided to bring his over here;


Great example of why smaller grapplers go for the legs. The size advantage makes a throw or standing takedown very difficult (considering the bigger guy knows Judo, you could make that to almost impossible).
 

Steve

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In my experience you get standard BJJ training and you get competitive BJJ training. Some schools are more centered around competition than others, and other schools are more traditional/SD than others. The stuff like you're talking about above is typically something individual athletes come up with in order to stand out and make names for themselves. People like Keenan Cornelius for example and his wide assortment of goofy Guards immediately come to mind. In short, people are (usually) smart enough to separate sport from self defense.

With that said, even though I mocked Ryan Hall's butt scooting in MMA earlier, something really needs to be said when you have a guy SITTING DOWN in a MMA match or even on HIS BACK and a standing fighter does not engage because he knows that engaging this person (who is either sitting or laying down) is a bad move. I know people laugh at that, or think it's clownish behavior on Hall's part, but do we really need a better symbol of how much someone respects someone's Guard than a situation like that?

Place someone on Hall's skill level into a SD situation, and he's in seated Guard and an unarmed assailant actually engages him. What do you think is going to happen? I'm sure Hall has trained dealing with kicks and punches from seated Guard, so what would the assailant honestly be able to do? Frankly Hall would have him in a leglock in a matter of seconds.
small OT: United World Wrestling has very nice format of submission wrestling competition, called by UWW just "Grappling".
The rule about takedown down is simple: if you are down for 3 or more seconds (doesn't matter if you sat down or if you were taken down) your oppenent get 2 points.
As an international UWW referee I've seen many fight lost by jujiteiros in this way: pull the guard or sit down, and being unable make up for the point loss. The matches are very nice combination of wrestling and bjj (other points for side control, mount, back or winning by submission).
Thats how ADCC does it too. So once the person is in the ground, do you make him stand back up, even if hes attempting to engage? Do you allow the standing person to avoid engaging?
 

Cynik75

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Thats how ADCC does it too. So once the person is in the ground, do you make him stand back up, even if hes attempting to engage? Do you allow the standing person to avoid engaging?
Person on the ground can stay on the ground. He/she just lost 2 points. Avoiding of engaging is very faste punished by penalty point - 4 penalties and DQ.

I do refereeing with IBJJF, ADCC etc rules for more than decade, and UWW Grappling rules theory and more important the practice emphasizes on the activity of fighter the most. DQ in IBJJF/ADCC for avoiding engaging are very rare, in UWW I have personally dq-ed a few compentitors in less than two minutes for lack of action.


PS. One day we in group of bjj/submission/etc referees made small play and we counted the points in a match with 3 different systems: IBJJF ADCC, UWW. We got 3 different results, with one competitor winning in 2 systems and the other winning with the third one.

Adjusting to the rules of the match is huuuge factor.
 

Steve

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Person on the ground can stay on the ground. He/she just lost 2 points. Avoiding of engaging is very faste punished by penalty point - 4 penalties and DQ.

I do refereeing with IBJJF, ADCC etc rules for more than decade, and UWW Grappling rules theory and more important the practice emphasizes on the activity of fighter the most. DQ in IBJJF/ADCC for avoiding engaging are very rare, in UWW I have personally dq-ed a few compentitors in less than two minutes for lack of action.


PS. One day we in group of bjj/submission/etc referees made small play and we counted the points in a match with 3 different systems: IBJJF ADCC, UWW. We got 3 different results, with one competitor winning in 2 systems and the other winning with the third one.

Adjusting to the rules of the match is huuuge factor.
I really appreciate your insight and agree completely. The rules make a big difference.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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So once the person is in the ground, do you make him stand back up, even if hes attempting to engage? Do you allow the standing person to avoid engaging?
If I

- stay on the ground, you will never be able to throw me.
- run away from you, you will never be able to punch me.
- kill myself, you will never be able to kill me.
- ...

How far do we want to apply this logic? This is why I don't like "pure sport". It can direct MA to some unrealistic extreme.

The logic approach is to use

- kick to set up punch.
- punch to set up clinch.
- clinch to set up throw.
- throw to set up the ground game.
 

Steve

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If I

- stay on the ground, you will never be able to throw me.
- run away from you, you will never be able to punch me.
- kill myself, you will never be able to kill me.
- ...

How far do we want to apply this logic? This is why I don't like "pure sport". It can direct MA to some unrealistic extreme.

The logic approach is to use a

- kick to set up punch.
- punch to set up clinch.
- clinch to set up throw.
- throw to set up the ground game.
I don't get it. We could use the same logic about soccer (for those not in the USA, that's the sport we put our kids in if they aren't well coordinated, but we want for them to get some fresh air ;)).

If I don't use my arms while playing soccer, how will I ever learn to throw the ball?

The answer is, you pick it up and you throw it... just not while you're playing soccer. You can play soccer, and also play football or rugby. Some of the skills you pick up in soccer will even carry over.

I don't see this as being a problem with soccer or an indictment of "sport". If the goal is to become really, really good at soccer, one might want to specialize. If the goal is to be the best all around athlete, one would probably want to participate in other sports, too.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I don't see this as being a problem with soccer or an indictment of "sport".
But BJJ claims to include the throwing skill itself. It will be funny that 20 years from now, a BJJ guy will have to join in a Judo school to learn the throwing skill.

It also makes no sense that 20 years from now, a Judo guy will have to join in a wrestling school to learn "single leg".
 
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Hanzou

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But BJJ claims to include the throwing skill itself. It will be funny that 20 years from now, a BJJ guy will have to join in a Judo school to learn the throwing skill.

It does include standing grappling. However, the main philosophy behind the art is ground fighting. You mostly see the "butt scooting" when a BJJ practitioner is dealing with someone who has better standing grappling, like a wrestler or judoka. A BJJer in competition gains nothing by attempting to outwrestle a wrestler or outjudo a Judoka. It's better to have them play your game instead of theirs, especially if they're in a BJJ competition.

Also in 20 years, BJJers will get their standing grappling from wrestling mainly. The era of BJJers getting their standing techs from Judo is fading rapidly.
 

drop bear

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But BJJ claims to include the throwing skill itself. It will be funny that 20 years from now, a BJJ guy will have to join in a Judo school to learn the throwing skill.

It also makes no sense that 20 years from now, a Judo guy will have to join in a wrestling school to learn "single leg".

Wrestling has hip tosses.

So Wrestling has everything that judo has. And everything it doesn't.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I don't get it. We could use the same logic about soccer (for those not in the USA, that's the sport we put our kids in if they aren't well coordinated, but we want for them to get some fresh air ;)).

If I don't use my arms while playing soccer, how will I ever learn to throw the ball?

The answer is, you pick it up and you throw it... just not while you're playing soccer. You can play soccer, and also play football or rugby. Some of the skills you pick up in soccer will even carry over.

I don't see this as being a problem with soccer or an indictment of "sport". If the goal is to become really, really good at soccer, one might want to specialize. If the goal is to be the best all around athlete, one would probably want to participate in other sports, too.
I read that as the same thing John was saying: outside of sport, do stuff that doesn't fit the ruleset, so you're not limited in your ability.
 

Steve

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I read that as the same thing John was saying: outside of sport, do stuff that doesn't fit the ruleset, so you're not limited in your ability.
Two quick comments. First, I hear you, but we're not talking about outside of the sport. We're talking about inside the sport. As I said, if you take a situation inside any sport, you could very easily and correctly observe that many of the things going on would not be very helpful outside that sport. Every sport is like that, without exception. For example, Soccer players don't use their hands while playing soccer, but I've never seen any evidence that this impairs their ability to also play football, where they CAN use their hands.

Second, we could discuss "outside the sport" if that's what you'd like to do. But step one in that would be to provide some kind of evidence that the thing happening in the sport is also happening outside of the sport. So, for example, if you have concerns that a TKD'ist is getting smashed in the face because he keeps his hands down in fights outside of the sport, and can provide some evidence that it happens, that's an interesting conversation to have. In this case, though, I've not seen a lot of evidence that Jiu Jitiero are pulling guard in street fights. I'm not saying it isn't happening... only that I have neither seen nor heard about it happening.

So, all that to say, if you have evidence that jiu jitiero are pulling guard in street fights, by all means, share it. And THEN, I think we can start this conversation. Otherwise, I don't think it's a very useful or constructive discussion, as it's talking about something that doesn't exist.
 

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Two quick comments. First, I hear you, but we're not talking about outside of the sport. We're talking about inside the sport. As I said, if you take a situation inside any sport, you could very easily and correctly observe that many of the things going on would not be very helpful outside that sport. Every sport is like that, without exception. For example, Soccer players don't use their hands while playing soccer, but I've never seen any evidence that this impairs their ability to also play football, where they CAN use their hands.

Second, we could discuss "outside the sport" if that's what you'd like to do. But step one in that would be to provide some kind of evidence that the thing happening in the sport is also happening outside of the sport. So, for example, if you have concerns that a TKD'ist is getting smashed in the face because he keeps his hands down in fights outside of the sport, and can provide some evidence that it happens, that's an interesting conversation to have. In this case, though, I've not seen a lot of evidence that Jiu Jitiero are pulling guard in street fights. I'm not saying it isn't happening... only that I have neither seen nor heard about it happening.

So, all that to say, if you have evidence that jiu jitiero are pulling guard in street fights, by all means, share it. And THEN, I think we can start this conversation. Otherwise, I don't think it's a very useful or constructive discussion, as it's talking about something that doesn't exist.
Um, I never said anyting about anyone pulling guard, at all. I agree with everything you say here, unless I'm missing something.
 

Steve

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Um, I never said anyting about anyone pulling guard, at all. I agree with everything you say here, unless I'm missing something.
The entire thread is about pulling guard. If you're posting in this thread, you are either directly or indirectly talking about pulling guard. Did you think you were posting in a different thread? (Honest question, because that happens sometimes)
 

Gerry Seymour

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The entire thread is about pulling guard. If you're posting in this thread, you are either directly or indirectly talking about pulling guard. Did you think you were posting in a different thread? (Honest question, because that happens sometimes)
So, if I make a comment in this thread, I must be asserting that people who do BJJ for sport will pull guard elsewhere?
 

Steve

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So, if I make a comment in this thread, I must be asserting that people who do BJJ for sport will pull guard elsewhere?
I think you have it turned around. If you're suggesting that BJJ competitors shouldn't pull guard in competition because it's a bad idea outside of competition, as Kung Fu Wang did and you seemed to agree, you have to first establish that it's true and not just something you're making up. I.e., you have to establish that it actually happens and that there is a real (and not theoretical) adverse effect.

Who's John?
 

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