The hatred of boot scooting

drop bear

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It takes advantage of what kind of is a saftey measure. So you can't slam guys or stack them. So butt flopping becomes a viable position.

Same as mma with three points of contact making some strikes illegal so people would take that three points as an aggressive stance.

It works within the rules of the game. But the game then produces a flawed system.

Same as playing positions for points.

It works but it is just weak.
 

wab25

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I think the best way to stop butt scooting, is to take some time and figure out how to counter it, really well. Think of it like any other position. Sure, there are advantages and things the butt scooter is looking for. But, there should also be ways to counter and defeat it. If a group of competitors, put in the time to figure out how to decisively counter the butt scoot, the scooting will stop. What we always see in these videos, is one person scooting and the other guy not real sure how to attack from the standing position. Once the standing guy knows what to do... and starts regularly defeating butt scooters... others will follow, and soon butt scooting will no longer be advantageous.
 

Steve

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It takes advantage of what kind of is a saftey measure. So you can't slam guys or stack them. So butt flopping becomes a viable position.

Same as mma with three points of contact making some strikes illegal so people would take that three points as an aggressive stance.

It works within the rules of the game. But the game then produces a flawed system.

Same as playing positions for points.

It works but it is just weak.
You can't stack them?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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many people who compete aren't doing it for SD purposes. They're doing it for sport.
This is why I believe if one is only interested in sport, the sport may lead the MA into the wrong direction.

I believe the correct MA training path should be:

boxing -> kick boxing (add kick) -> Sanda (add throw) -> MMA (add ground game)

Training such as boxing, Judo/wrestling, BJJ, are just the temporary path and should not be the final goal.

If your opponents have spent their training time split between standup and ground skills, you may end up with an advantage.
One should also train both of his stand up game and ground game in a fist flying environment.

In the following clip, he completely ignore the head protection. What if his opponent has a knife that can chop his head off? When one stands up, he protects his head. When he is on the ground, he doesn't protect his head. It makes no sense to me.

 
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Buka

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Bottom line is if it's within the rules it's perfectly okay. Outside of the bottom line, it seems like kind of a pussy tactic. However, that being said - if the kid on the ground was intimidated by the standing guy's skill set, good for him for getting the win.

My puppy sometimes butt scoots. And I always deduct a point from her.
 

Steve

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Every sport and competitive ruleset has weaknesses. There is no such thing as a complete ruleset, and I think it's a mistake to worry overly much about it. Judo and wrestling promote takedown offense and defense over ground fighting, as a result of the ruleset. And there's nothing wrong with that, IMO. TKD promotes kicking over punching. Boxing promotes punching over kicking. In every sport, people get really good at the things they apply in the sport. So, the goal isn't to come up with one sport that addresses everything... that's a nigh impossible task. Instead, I think the healthiest approach is to promote participation in diverse rulesets.

Consider for a minute if the stalling rules in BJJ were similar or the same as for Judo. Let's say the roles are reversed and the guy on the mat would be required to stand up. Just by changing that simple rule you have changed the entire emphasis of the sport, and the action would essentially begin to look like Judo in gi or wrestling in no-gi.

And conversely, just by changing this simple rule, we would be discouraging development of ground fighting skills by refocusing on takedowns.

My point is that one isn't inherently better than the other, and also that we have plenty of takedown-centric rulesets already, but only one that focuses on ground fighting. If the goal is to promote well rounded martial artists, eliminating the sport that focuses on an otherwise neglected skillset is a bad idea.
 

Steve

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Bottom line is if it's within the rules it's perfectly okay. Outside of the bottom line, it seems like kind of a pussy tactic. However, that being said - if the kid on the ground was intimidated by the standing guy's skill set, good for him for getting the win.

My puppy sometimes butt scoots. And I always deduct a point from her.
Personally, I think the guy standing was the pussy, and was the one who was intimidated. If we're being blunt about it.
 
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Hanzou

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It takes advantage of what kind of is a saftey measure. So you can't slam guys or stack them. So butt flopping becomes a viable position.

Same as mma with three points of contact making some strikes illegal so people would take that three points as an aggressive stance.

It works within the rules of the game. But the game then produces a flawed system.

Same as playing positions for points.

It works but it is just weak.

Im pretty sure you can slam at metamoris and ADCC, and you still get butt scooters.

Heck Ryan Hall was butt scooting in MMA recently.

EDIT: @Steve laughs because Ryan Halls MMA butt scooting was both sad and hilarious at the same time.
 
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Hanzou

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This is why I believe if one is only interested in sport, the sport may lead the MA into the wrong direction.

I believe the correct MA training path should be:

boxing -> kick boxing (add kick) -> Sanda (add throw) -> MMA (add ground game)

Training such as boxing, Judo/wrestling, BJJ, are just the temporary path and should not be the final goal.


One should also train both of his stand up game and ground game in a fist flying environment.

In the following clip, he completely ignore the head protection. What if his opponent has a knife that can chop his head off? When one stands up, he protects his head. When he is on the ground, he doesn't protect his head. It makes no sense to me.


I think the mistake here is believing that someone doing that in a competition would be dumb enough to do it exactly the same way in a dangerous situation

I seriously doubt they would.

For example, I know Judoka who have good ne-waza, but turtle like crazy in Judo comps.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I think the mistake here is believing that someone doing that in a competition would be dumb enough to do it exactly the same way in a dangerous situation
What's your opinion between BJJ sport training and BJJ combat training?

Take the Chinese wrestling for example.

- In sport, you just throw your opponent down.
- In combat, you have to hurt your opponent when you throw him.
 
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Hanzou

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What's your opinion between BJJ sport training and BJJ combat training?

Take the Chinese wrestling for example.

- In sport, you just throw your opponent down.
- In combat, you have to hurt your opponent when you throw him.

In my experience you get standard BJJ training and you get competitive BJJ training. Some schools are more centered around competition than others, and other schools are more traditional/SD than others. The stuff like you're talking about above is typically something individual athletes come up with in order to stand out and make names for themselves. People like Keenan Cornelius for example and his wide assortment of goofy Guards immediately come to mind. In short, people are (usually) smart enough to separate sport from self defense.

With that said, even though I mocked Ryan Hall's butt scooting in MMA earlier, something really needs to be said when you have a guy SITTING DOWN in a MMA match or even on HIS BACK and a standing fighter does not engage because he knows that engaging this person (who is either sitting or laying down) is a bad move. I know people laugh at that, or think it's clownish behavior on Hall's part, but do we really need a better symbol of how much someone respects someone's Guard than a situation like that?

Place someone on Hall's skill level into a SD situation, and he's in seated Guard and an unarmed assailant actually engages him. What do you think is going to happen? I'm sure Hall has trained dealing with kicks and punches from seated Guard, so what would the assailant honestly be able to do? Frankly Hall would have him in a leglock in a matter of seconds.
 

Buka

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Personally, I think the guy standing was the pussy, and was the one who was intimidated. If we're being blunt about it.
There's a good chance of that, too.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I don't see it so much as a gap in the rules as Wrestlers not being able to smash a person sitting down on a mat. 9/10 a person standing up has a significant advantage against a person sitting down. You're a very confident grappler if you're sitting down against a standing opponent.

It also speaks volumes that we have so many non-BJJ grapplers backing away from seated Guard and refusing to engage. As a poster here mentioned earlier; I think its more telling that you're backing away from someone putting themselves in a weaker position.
Moving down to that person on the ground already, they have fewer vulnerabilities because of their stab
Nobody could argue he didn't engage. :D
 
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Hanzou

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Moving down to that person on the ground already, they have fewer vulnerabilities because of their stab

Interestingly in MMA, being on the ground like that can allow you to do upkicks which can really mess someone up;


Nobody could argue he didn't engage. :D


Interestingly right after he did that, Silva got top position.
 

Cynik75

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small OT: United World Wrestling has very nice format of submission wrestling competition, called by UWW just "Grappling".
The rule about takedown down is simple: if you are down for 3 or more seconds (doesn't matter if you sat down or if you were taken down) your oppenent get 2 points.
As an international UWW referee I've seen many fight lost by jujiteiros in this way: pull the guard or sit down, and being unable make up for the point loss. The matches are very nice combination of wrestling and bjj (other points for side control, mount, back or winning by submission).
 
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