The Great "what If..."

[rockky]

I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.

I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen."

Well, way back when I was in high school, i guy got mad at me and came from behind and should be with all of his might. Since I didn't see him coming, my face ate the grass. I remember being momentarily stunned, but quickly got up to deal with him.

But in that situation, I was on the ground and he could have jumped on my back...etc...


So what if someone takes you down in order for them to deal with you in their area of expertise.
I'm wondering about the application of Kenpo on the ground. Are we severly limited or undertrained?

Or just as important, techniques that prevent a wrestler or grappler from taking you down. I saw several clips on Youtube that were sobering and made me really think about it.

Any wise comments?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.

I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen."

Well, way back when I was in high school, i guy got mad at me and came from behind and should be with all of his might. Since I didn't see him coming, my face ate the grass. I remember being momentarily stunned, but quickly got up to deal with him.

But in that situation, I was on the ground and he could have jumped on my back...etc...


So what if someone takes you down in order for them to deal with you in their area of expertise.
I'm wondering about the application of Kenpo on the ground. Are we severly limited or undertrained?

Or just as important, techniques that prevent a wrestler or grappler from taking you down. I saw several clips on Youtube that were sobering and made me really think about it.

Any wise comments?

Yes train on the ground, or any other range you are not familiar with. Once you identify your opponents strong point, avoid that range.
Sean

 

[Blindside]

So what if someone takes you down in order for them to deal with you in their area of expertise.
I'm wondering about the application of Kenpo on the ground. Are we severly limited or undertrained?

Or just as important, techniques that prevent a wrestler or grappler from taking you down. I saw several clips on Youtube that were sobering and made me really think about it.

Any wise comments?

I think it is fair to say that most kenpoists don't train ground-fighting enough. And that if you subscribe to the "to feel is to believe" kenpo saying, you really should spend some time on the mat with good wrestlers or submission grapplers (BJJ, sambo, etc) to get an idea what their game is. Having a guy who doesn't know how a wrestler shoots for a single or double leg, and then tries to teach a tech to defend it is being intellectually dishonest.

Lamont

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I think it is fair to say that most kenpoists don't train ground-fighting enough. And that if you subscribe to the "to feel is to believe" kenpo saying, you really should spend some time on the mat with good wrestlers or submission grapplers (BJJ, sambo, etc) to get an idea what their game is. Having a guy who doesn't know how a wrestler shoots for a single or double leg, and then tries to teach a tech to defend it is being intellectually dishonest.

Lamont

Ssssshhhh, you're giving away all of the secrets.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.

I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen."

Well, way back when I was in high school, i guy got mad at me and came from behind and should be with all of his might. Since I didn't see him coming, my face ate the grass. I remember being momentarily stunned, but quickly got up to deal with him.

But in that situation, I was on the ground and he could have jumped on my back...etc...


So what if someone takes you down in order for them to deal with you in their area of expertise.
I'm wondering about the application of Kenpo on the ground. Are we severly limited or undertrained?

Or just as important, techniques that prevent a wrestler or grappler from taking you down. I saw several clips on Youtube that were sobering and made me really think about it.

Any wise comments?

Limited..to a degree...the degree being how "undertrained" the kenpoist is. The trend is for people to say "Kenpo has answers to how to defend on the ground." But they can't show any because they don't spend any time there.

What clips do you see?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Limited..to a degree...the degree being how "undertrained" the kenpoist is. The trend is for people to say "Kenpo has answers to how to defend on the ground." But they can't show any because they don't spend any time there.

What clips do you see?

Ayup. I'm one of those dastardly mixers who suggests you take some time to complement your kenpo training judo to learn how to fall (cuz you don't always see it coming, and sometimes even when you do, the other guy's just faster or better), and some BJJ.

As a KENPOIST, try to avoid going to ground as much as possible; I see guys LEAPING to the ground, like they can't get enough of it fast enough. As a PERSON who may find himself down there anyways, be ready to deal with it should it happen.

Predictably, you'll see the answers reflect personal biases. I'm a big fan of the floor game, and so I say "train there". Others, not so much. Take reccommendations with a grain of salt, then follow your own best instincts.

Dave

 

[MJS]

I'm new to the forum so perhaps this has been answered. But what if you, the kenpo practitioner, were to be taken down in a real fight.

I would ask my instructor who would answer by say that "that shouldn't happen."

Well, way back when I was in high school, i guy got mad at me and came from behind and should be with all of his might. Since I didn't see him coming, my face ate the grass. I remember being momentarily stunned, but quickly got up to deal with him.

But in that situation, I was on the ground and he could have jumped on my back...etc...


So what if someone takes you down in order for them to deal with you in their area of expertise.
I'm wondering about the application of Kenpo on the ground. Are we severly limited or undertrained?

Or just as important, techniques that prevent a wrestler or grappler from taking you down. I saw several clips on Youtube that were sobering and made me really think about it.

Any wise comments?

I have to agree with what some of the others have said, specifically James, Dave and Lamont. As it was said, there will be a huge difference between having someone shoot in one you who really isn't that good and someone shoot is is good. Considering I like to prepare for the worst case, I'd rather work with someone who does know how to shoot. That way, when the untrained person attempts it, it should be much easier to deal with.

Some are going to say its in there you just need to know how to find it. It is true...there are grappling elements in there, but IMHO, if you really want to know the ins and outs on a higher level, you're going to have to cross train. Some will frown upon that, and thats fine...after all, its their choice right? For myself I cross train in BJJ. My Arnis inst. has a strong grappling background, so I work with him and one of the Black Belts at my school trains under Roy Harris, so we get grappling from him as well.

Mike

 

[KenpoGunz]

Lots of good advice, and I like what Blindside said about the honesty thing.

Since you have so much advice here, I'll try to provide some feedback on kenpo and my experiences with grappling.

I noticed most of the concepts and principles of ground grappling are in American Kenpo(Infinite Insights vol 5 curriculum) but not the moves themselves. For example, using a pinning check in lone kimono and using a pinning check when bridging and rolling (when mounted) both involve an important concept of pinning an opponents limb to limit its movement so that you may manipulate the opponent.

Someone who really knows the kenpo principles should be able to develop fuctional techniques on the ground, but I kinda see this as reinventing the wheel, considering that many grappling styles effectively do this already. A lot depends your instructors training, knowledge and depth of understanding regarding what the kenpo techniques are doing.
One problem that unfortunately, many kenpo instructors have today is looking good while blasting through techniques but come up short when applying theory to someone who isnt just standing there. This includes the ground. That comes from poor instruction regarding application.
We have two great guys on here than can give you good advice regarding this topic. They are Mr. Conatser and Mr. Chapel. I'm sure there are more but I have not been on here in a while and dont know who is available. I'll even go so far to say that I'm not such a bad source of info regarding this topic.
A cool experiment is to pick a ground position from which you must escape. Than, using ideas, concepts, principles, moves from American Kenpo create a technique designed to esacpe that position. Use only safe moves at first so that you can use it agaisnt your resisting partner. When the techniques works most of the time for most people, add the more dangerous elements to it, and than call it Rolling the Ram or something LOL The results will depend on your ability to apply the concepts.
Something else that is cool to do is take out sparring safe moves from the techniques and apply them to your sparring. i'll get you started......
Dance of Death...Single leg takedown
Triping Arrow...Sweep
Securing the STORM... Sweep/throw similar to tripping arrow
Glancing Spear... Freeing wrist from grabs, also set up the sweep with a jab to distract and close the distance.
Thrusting Prongs... defend the take down by semisprawling and turn the "prongs" into palms on opponents hips (pushing away).
Striking Serpents Head.... Defend grab by eleminating the shot to the back of the head and turning the half fist into a double hand push to the opponents chin.
Grip of Death...for standing head lock, Turn the face claw into just pulling opponents head back, and remember to anchor the elbow. Eliminate strikes of course. And take them down over yor leg.
Squating Sacrafice... Use The knee bar if you find the oppontent grabing you from behind.
Encounter with Danger... Practice your falling.
Crossing Talon... Arm bar
Spiraling Twig... Arm bar
Sleeper... Arm triangle choke, or use the rear naked as a variation. Or the Ezikeil choke.
If you get any of the arm bars, knee bars, choke etc.. locked in do them untill you get the tap so that you understand and feel them applied correctly. It doesnt hurt to train with someone in grappling though. One more thing, grappling is about timing, dont go forcing one move. Knowing when to apply something comes from practice.
Ed Parker once defined "freestyle" as the extemporaneous use of basic fundamentals.
I'm sure he did'nt mean strikes only.
Hopefully, I have been of some help.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo. but we are weak on the ground. before kenpo, i wrestled in middle school and high school.

the conflicts i've been in were a pretty even split between my kenpo skills and my wrestling skills.

kenpoists should definitely train from the ground. and, as blindside pointed out, we should be familiar with the holds we train against. how can you teach 'crashing wings' if you've never had a guy grab you from behind?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Ayup. I'm one of those dastardly mixers who suggests you take some time to complement your kenpo training judo to learn how to fall (cuz you don't always see it coming, and sometimes even when you do, the other guy's just faster or better), and some BJJ.

As a KENPOIST, try to avoid going to ground as much as possible; I see guys LEAPING to the ground, like they can't get enough of it fast enough. As a PERSON who may find himself down there anyways, be ready to deal with it should it happen.

Predictably, you'll see the answers reflect personal biases. I'm a big fan of the floor game, and so I say "train there". Others, not so much. Take reccommendations with a grain of salt, then follow your own best instincts.

Dave

Tis far better to lay down before you are thrown down.
Sean

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Tis far better to lay down before you are thrown down.
Sean

Yeah Lay down not JUMP down and "take the fall" as some have been showing. :cough: gripping leaves :cough, cough:

 

[IWishToLearn]

Yeah Lay down not JUMP down and "take the fall" as some have been showing. :cough: gripping leaves :cough, cough:

You mean I can't sutemi any more?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Tis far better to lay down before you are thrown down.
Sean

Having had a wicked counter-throw game before arthritis kicked in, I don't agree. If he's got you, you've got him, and as much velocity as he applies to you can be put right back on him.

Latch on, plane out, and twist...then listen for the sounds of crunching bone. Might be yours, but more likely to be his.

Additionally, I think it's a great argument for kenpoists learning judo as part of the complete package. A palm-heel take-down is a poor excuse for a wicked osoto-goshi or osoto-guruma, and in between the stand up game and the ground game is a whole other game with potential for wrecking bad guys' days; people-tossing.

Why only throw a fist or a foot at the guy, when you can throw a planet at him?

Regards,

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Yeah Lay down not JUMP down and "take the fall" as some have been showing. :cough: gripping leaves :cough, cough:

You weren't smitten by the sheer star power in that one either? :barf:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

You mean I can't sutemi any more?

A well-executed sacrifice throw is truly a thing of beauty, side-winding being my personal competition fave. Jumping to an arm-bar, or even to the guard when you feel the bout heading that way ain't bad either, depending on the context (concrete? multiples?). If you haven't seen the vid James is referencing, let me know; I'll send you the link.

 

[Doc]

i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo. but we are weak on the ground.

You mean YOU right? Don't be so presumptious that you can speak for all of Kenpo based on your experiences please. I know some here right off the bat that would differ with you based on their skill and training. Hawkman straighten him out. Don't hurtem' Dave.

 

[Gentle Fist]

After earning my Nidan in Kenpo, I started studying BJJ and Judo. It was the BEST thing I ever did!!! It improved my overall game and I see a lot more openings for offense now, that I overlooked before...

 

[kenpoworks]

Hey Doc,
I do not hang around the forums as much as I used to and rarely post anymore (I leave it to the smart guys), but I was over on the "darkside" and I thought I would post this about my "china"...
.......one of Docs Strengths is that he always gives praise where its due and that he can deliver critique with constuctive analysis......
...after reading this ....

You mean YOU right? Don't be so presumptious that you can speak for all of Kenpo based on your experiences please. I know some here right off the bat that would differ with you based on their skill and training. Hawkman straighten him out. Don't hurtem' Dave.

....I will have to add he also gets to the point Pretty Dam Quick.

Rich

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

You weren't smitten by the sheer star power in that one either? :barf:

yeah, seeing stars alright...from the impact.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

i've been a kenpo guy for a long time, and i love kenpo. but we are weak on the ground.

I'm so sorry for you. LOL.