the good bad and ugly

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I think there are some interesting issues and points in that posting.

But I also feel it is a bit slamming towards certain people it mentioned too. I don't know Ed Parker Jr. personally but from what i have read (I might be wrong so dont hate me) but he studied under Dr Ron Chapel.

Dr Ron Chapel is an incredible kenpo teacher and a man who has been helping to keep the Flame of Parker Kenpo Karate alive and moving forward. Also, I do believe that Ed Parker Jr. did get his black belt from Dr. Chapel who is more then qualified to award that rank.

As for the awarding of rank I believe in my opinion there are some people out there who have awarded themselves higher rank by forming their own association. I say great for them. That is their choice.

I look at it this way you can be what ever rank you want to be. But, when it comes down to things actions speak louder. I have visited some schools as an observer and they had a high ranking person who didnt seem like someone who should be that rank.

I think that people should do their research and look people and their credentials up. Then go to a few classes to watch and see these people in action. There is a place here in chicago that comes to mind. They have been around for 20 years plus. But, when recently i called to ask to come by and watch a class i was told that is not allowed.
They offered a style that was a combination of a variety of different arts. They said i would have to sign up and pay for a month of classes to see them. But, I was told that they did have a lot of high ranking people teaching the classes. I guess its so good i got to pay to see a glimps.
That if anything turned me off. I have visited many schools around the country and never been told that i could not sit as an observer to see how a class is done.

I guess its that old adage "Ancient Chinese Secret" LOL

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Right, I agree. I just see alot of McDojo's popping up all over the place. I greatly agree that alot of great schools are opened and organization started by groups who split from other organizations. I just meant that I don't like McDojo's. I agree with Chicago Dragon. And GoldenDragon, you may have not said my post was stupid, but you SURE said just about everything but that.

:asian:

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Yes, Quantity does not equate quality, and obviously with that many schools all over the nation(1600), there must be plenty of sucky schools. I'm just stating that its pretty good that ATA has taken it's standards to higher levels. I know enough schools out there that need help, but the school I go to has pretty high quality. And I enjoy the variety of MA, along with the set TKD cirriculum. Jujitsu, Aikido, Kickboxing, Pro-tech Weapons Training system, Self Defense, and such. But there are lot of ATA schools out there that do not have such high qualities. Definitely.

 

[Rich Parsons]

From Rich Parsons:
"Some grow just from the experience of asking the question. Others grow from debating the question. Others can grow from just listenting to the different points of view, even though they be rhetoric. For in understanding who others think you begin to understand the person themself."

Well said. Real world appointments/promotions come from seniors and are are considered and endorsed by a chain of command/approving authority (seniors higher up than the candidate and his imediate seniors). Comparing congress and their constituents to martial arts organizations falls short in comparison. It's another circle of rhetoric.
. . .
Tim Kashino

Tim,

My data is a little old, back from the early 90's. I know that many in the Navy were field promoted only based upon their recomendation from their commanding officers and baord of review. Yet, Congress did not approve any of the promotions, therefore technically they were not complete or recognized or approved of, ..., . The promotions were as low as recognition of Ensign from the Academy or even Lt. j.g. . So, even the lowest officers were not really promoted. They acted with all the rights and priviledges of an officer of the that rank, only it was not official until Congress put their stamp on it.

So, who promotes the four star generals when we do not have 5 star standing around? Who promotes the five star general, since he has no seniors?

Yet, as I said congress is new every two years and they do not go back and review all previous promotions and rank. Yet it is Congress who has the final say no matter how much of a rubber stamp it might appear, it is still there and can be exercised at their will. It was the people who elected the President and the Congress, and they decide who shall be awarded rank and or recognition of status.

Just my opinions and I maybe arguing rhetoric with you. Which still goes back to the beginning of this circle discussion, why would you begin it?

PS:

Paul Martin I do like a coca-cola very now and again.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Tim,

Which still goes back to the beginning of this circle discussion, why would you begin it?

Please refer to the last line of my last post.

 

[DoxN4cer]

"Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?"

War

 

[Rich Parsons]

Please refer to the last line of my last post.

Yes, I saw it, thank you for the redirect or the circle back.

You were the one who brought forth the circlular arguement discussion about my post. And I replied that my questions were not my opinion that followed. As you pointed out they contradicted each other.

 

[Rich Parsons]

"Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?"

War

Nice Quote

 

[Tgace]

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/dec92/political/political.html

 

[Rich Parsons]

Power: "Im the biggest guy here and I call the shots"
Money: Push out/badmouth the competition to get a bigger slice.
Ego: "Im a geek/low self-esteem looser who places so much of my self worth in the Martial Arts that I cant go on without having a position of authority in it."


IMHO the "Big 3" in all this political @#$%

Nice thoughts and ideas.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Nice Quote

Damn good song.

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/dec92/political/political.html

Hmmm why can we not get along?

Not sure why? We were placed on opposite sides because I was not on his side at the beginning. I asked him to join out of offered friendship and peace offering on my part.

Yet, I thought we had come far enough to ask these types of questions, with out being told to CTFO or in essence being told off. I replied to a post in a questioning format. And I was the bad guy, when the original poster claims he only wished to see where it went. I nice political or psychological study if you were to review it and to know all the parties first hand?

Yet in the process, have I gone through and given negative karma? No, I prefer to address my points here in public. I prefer to ask the questions to better understand and to maybe just grow in the process.

I have not sworn except to repeat the original quote to me that included CTFO. I have not insulted people by calling them small or little minded, or narrow minded, or closed minded. I have asked questions and tried to reply to others.

Have my questions insulted everyone?

Have my questions insulted anyone?

For you see that was not my intent, it may have been the impact, as everyone seems to be looking for something hidden. I admit, I ask the questions to better understand for I could see something hidden. Yet to assume something bad of a person just off the start, is not a good way of addressing issues or trying to grow. So, I ask the questions to better understand.


Let me ask you all what do you think of this?

I make the statement that the sky is blue.

Comments?

So, if I have insulted or caused anyone to question their beliefs of to feel threatened, for that I apologize.



PS: Tgace qeustion? What is my motive for the politics? Why would I not want Tim K and Paul M and you here? Why would I not want you all to express your point of views? I ask as your provided the link to the politics thread and also posted the BIG 3 of politics. Thank You


Best Regards
:asian:

 

[Tgace]

The Newbie Guide to Martial Arts Doublespeak



When people say...
They really mean...

Japanese martial arts are the best.
I practice a Japanese art.

This art is thousands of years old.
This style is decades old.

The martial arts are about building better people.
The martial arts are about sweat, bruises and money.

Chinese martial arts are the best.
I practice a Chinese martial art.

High kicks are stupid.
I can't do high kicks.

Sparring is extremely important.
I'm good at fighting and I like it and I can't do much of anything else.

The martial arts are about building better people.
The martial arts are about beating people up if they lay a finger on you.

Korean martial arts are the best.
I practice a Korean martial art.

Breaking techniques are very important.
We do a lot of breaking techniques.

I don't believe in grades.
Nobody ever gave me a high grade.

The martial arts are about building better evolved characters.
Like me.

Filipino martial arts are the best.
I practice a Filipino martial art.

Sophisticated arts like Tai Chi and Aikido are far superior.
Sparring frightens me.

He's a good martial arts teacher.
He's in my organization.

He's a lousy martial arts teacher.
He used to be in my organization but he broke away and I don't get any money out of him anymore.

My style is the best.
I don't know anything about any other styles.

Grades are not important.
There's a grading coming up and it's important.

Breaking techniques are useless.
I can't do breaking techniques.

I'm an innovative, free-thinking, modern Western martial arts teacher, doing my own non-classical thing.
I'm more interested in teaching than learning; and the Orientals ignore me because they know how ignorant I am.

Martial arts politics are the necessary result of official recognition by respectable associations to protect the public.
I belong to a large, well-established organization.

I hate martial arts politics.
None of the large, well-established organizations recognize me or have the slightest interest in my existence.

In this system, we make the art fit the person.
In this system, we make the person fit the art.

Competitions are a waste of time.
I never won any competitions.

Forms or kata are the highest expression of the inner essence of the martial arts.
I read that somewhere -- and I've had enough of tournaments.

Forms or kata are useless.
Bruce Lee said forms are useless and this relieves me of a lot of effort, so go argue with him.

One style is not better than another -- it's the individual that counts.
Don't go to another school--it's the style we teach here that counts.

The techniques aren't important.
The techniques are important.

The principles are important.
I wouldn't know what else to do with the principles so it's the techniques that are important.

Bruce Lee didn't know what he was talking about.
I don't know what Bruce Lee was talking about.

Size and strength are not important.
Size and strength are important, especially if you're fighting somebody who's bigger and stronger than you are.

Science and leverage will always win out over brute force.
Except when he's bigger and stronger than you are.

The purpose of the martial arts is spiritual development and liberation from the ego.
I'm so humble and wise, it's terrific.

Requirements for 11th Degree Black Belt

• Well before testing for this rank any experienced Taekwondo teacher should have already learned these basic techniques:
• Escape from Dojang (Training Hall): The quick exit to avoid clean up and helping with the pads.
• Sleeper Stance: Standing at the corner of the dojang pretending to be observing the students as they sweat with exhaustion.
• Sigh of Wisdom: Sudden, forceful exhalation when a beginning student unexpectedly survives a dangerous high kick without injury.
• Crossing Fingers: A hopeful posture used when a student has been beaten senseless.
• Gift of Instruction: The act of taking credit whenever a student wins a tournament or performs a technique correctly.
• Seeing Without Seeing: The dazed look of amazement given to the student who asks a stupid question.
• Mugger's Defense: Offering to lighten the student's wallet to reduce the risk of confrontation.
• Instructor's Downfall: Failing to ask for enough money to keep the dojang open.
• Further requirements: Must be able to walk on water (while it is in liquid form).
• Must be able to disable a man using only a Kleenex tissue as a weapon.
• Must be able to make up meaningless Zen sayings on the spot.
• Must be able to catch a fly with chopsticks.
• Must be able to defeat multiple masked ninja movie warriors after they disclose their evil plans to you and leave you to die in an easily escapable situation.
• Must be able to voice over a Godzilla movie properly (i.e. coordination between the movement of the lips and the voice).
• Must be able to take a bullet (not in the chest of course but maybe in the foot or something).
• Must be able to make your own nuclear device with a piece of bubble gum, a pencil, some coconuts, and an alarm clock.
• Must be able to change into a dobuk in a phone booth at any given moment.
• Must be able to sing Karaoke.
• Must be able to use nature to your advantage (e.g. sick a dog on the enemy, throw stones at him, climb a tree and hide...)
• Must be able to fight blindfolded and win (against blind competitors of course).
• Must have completed a course in "Basic Samurai Sushi".
• Must be able to choreograph street fights for Jackie Chan movies.
• Must be able to use an opponent's skill as a reason for defeat.
• Must be able to keep all bleeding internal.
• Must be able to trim an entire forest into a bonsai garden in 25 minutes or less.
• Note: Laughing at any time will disqualify the potential 11th dan. If a member of the Senior Board of Examiners makes a comment and then waits expectantly, it may be an indication that he has just made a joke. A half-smile may be tried at this time, but in no other instance.

blatantly stolen from
http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/groups/taekwondo/funnies.html

 

[Tgace]

PS: Tgace qeustion? What is my motive for the politics? Why would I not want Tim K and Paul M and you here? Why would I not want you all to express your point of views? I ask as your provided the link to the politics thread and also posted the BIG 3 of politics. Thank You


Best Regards
:asian:

Are you involved in this "promotional politics" stuff? I personally have no stake (and very little knowledge of the stuff you guys are talking about) in any of this...just tossing my political/philosophical $.02 in.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Are you involved in this "promotional politics" stuff? I personally have no stake (and very little knowledge of the stuff you guys are talking about) in any of this...just tossing my political/philosophical $.02 in.

Well no I am not involved per se with the promotional stuff on a personal level.

I have not been promoted, nor assumed any rank. And when / if that occurs it will be my senior instructor with whom I am still very much affiliated with.


you did post

Originally Posted by Tgace
Power: "Im the biggest guy here and I call the shots"
Money: Push out/badmouth the competition to get a bigger slice.
Ego: "Im a geek/low self-esteem looser who places so much of my self worth in the Martial Arts that I cant go on without having a position of authority in it."


IMHO the "Big 3" in all this political @#$%

I am 6'3" and an engineer which means big geek and as an Admin I could push people out. See, no matter how you might mean something people can take it wrong.

So, the point I am making is that I did not mean to be the enemy, and yet it was perceived to be.
:asian:

 

[Tgace]

If you think that post was directed at you...it wasnt. Its just my opinion of where fighting over stuff as trivial as this really originates from. IMHO some 19 y.o E-1 private getting shot at in Iraq deserves more respect in my eyes than who is or isnt a 9th,10th 234th Dan in "WhoGivesa@#$% Jutsu".

 

[Rich Parsons]

If you think that post was directed at you...it wasnt. Its just my opinion of where fighting over stuff as trivial as this really originates from. IMHO some 19 y.o E-1 private getting shot at in Iraq deserves more respect in my eyes than who is or isnt a 9th,10th 234th Dan in "WhoGivesa@#$% Jutsu".

I did not think it was directed at, me I was making a smiley to let you know that, I was thinking it was made to be an addition to the discussion. Yet it did give me a lead into how anyone can take anything from anyone and see demons.

 

[Tgace]

I did not think it was directed at, me I was making a smiley to let you know that, I was thinking it was made to be an addition to the discussion. Yet it did give me a lead into how anyone can take anything from anyone and see demons.

Thats cool with me :supcool:

 

[loki09789]

As far as the text is concerned, it is bias - as all things will be.

I think the problem with some Martial Org. Promotions is the confusion of percieved leadership criteria and martial arts rank.

Most MA org. work from the position that the most highly ranked artist should be the 'leader' as if we were some clan or tribe were the king is the winner of the joust. The problem is that, with current training practices, high ranking MArtists are NOT being groomed or trained as leaders like they were in warrior classes or military organizations. Hell, some intructional programs don't even include training as instructors - they only learn by doing with very little formal educational training. Internship and copying what others do is not professional instructor training. Teaching/Leadership is a separate set of skills - as it is taught in the current practices - from martial skill.

Martial Rank is normally based on skill and performance assessments. That can only be assessed by those who are Higher ranked/superior in skill and performance than the candidate being tested for promotion.

Now, the appointment of a CEO or Leader by a board of directors based on his character, leadership and administrative skills does make sense. I would say that a board could agree/appoint a leader, but then you have the disparity of highest org. authority being other than the highest ranked/skilled artists.

If part of the criteria for leadership appointment is martial skill and rank in an organization it should be part of the formal instruction/assessment, that is well done in most MA groups. BUT if leadership and instructional skill is part of the RANK promotion it should be just as clearly and formally laid out for instruction and clearly tested and assessed as skill is tested. There should be a baseline of philosophy, teaching strategies should be outlined and taught formally, as well as planning and implementing class management strategies... Military leadership programs would be an effective model, though with adaptation for your particular principles and goals.

It it illogical for people to think that just because a MArtist is skilled at kicking and punching/artistic understanding that they will be an effective leader. It is also a weakness on the part of MArtists to assume that the Rankest (oops) artist has been groomed for leadership.

 

[tshadowchaser]

We now return to regularly schuelded disscussion on the original post