the good bad and ugly

[DoxN4cer]

Hi all,

Take a look at this link, and let's talk about it.

http://www.tracyskarate.com/AmKenpo/baduglyhtm.htm


Tim Kashino

 

[Zoran]

IMHO, not a lot to discuss. There is some truth in the article, but it is biased and paints a whole system and its people with the same brush. There are a lot of very good people in EPAK and I've been welcomed by many without even knowing much about me. The amount of times a ran into a bad seed was not often but those things tend to stick in ones mind more easily than the good.

Also if you read the last paragraph, you can see where the inspiration came from.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

eh, just an opinion and also I don't believe in any of that. Its the stupidest thing for someone to do so. Just because ATA TKD was formed by Grandmaster HU LEE didn't mean he was a 9th degree at the start...he formed it like 30 years ago and he was only moved up to 9th about 20 years later. And that was because he was just plain good and unbeatable and ALL the masters agreed upon his rank. Hmmm...makes it interesting, huh?

 

[Rich Parsons]

IMHO, not a lot to discuss. There is some truth in the article, but it is biased and paints a whole system and its people with the same brush. There are a lot of very good people in EPAK and I've been welcomed by many without even knowing much about me. The amount of times a ran into a bad seed was not often but those things tend to stick in ones mind more easily than the good.

Also if you read the last paragraph, you can see where the inspiration came from.

From Al Tracy this supposedly post on the web page is from.

Who promoted Mr Tracy? is a question I would I ask if I cared.

The big question, is do I care? History is full of organizations or schools that break up after the leader or head instructor or grandmaster dies or retires. People splt up, and do things differently or have issues with other people that were only held in check by mutual respect of their common instructor. Given the internet and publicity in recent history it makes it much easier to discuss these new organizations.


Now I do have a Questoin for Tim Kashino though.

Tim, Why ask the question?

Were you looking to cause some heated discussions between the EPAK and Tracy groups?

Were you trying to point out the Remy Presas, one of the arts you studied, also did his own thing?

Were you trying to point out that Tom Bolden formed his own organization?

Were you trying to point out that Jerome Barber one of your instructors also left and joined / formed and organization of Kenpo and Arnis?

Given your previous comments that you would like to have positive discussions, I am really looking for the positive light of this.

Tim please educate me on this.

What was your reason for this post?

Thank You
:asian:

 

[Tgace]

Power: "Im the biggest guy here and I call the shots"
Money: Push out/badmouth the competition to get a bigger slice.
Ego: "Im a geek/low self-esteem looser who places so much of my self worth in the Martial Arts that I cant go on without having a position of authority in it."


IMHO the "Big 3" in all this political @#$%

 

[Goldendragon7]

eh, just an opinion and also I don't believe in any of that. Its the stupidest thing for someone to do so. Just because ATA TKD was formed by Grandmaster HU LEE didn't mean he was a 9th degree at the start...he formed it like 30 years ago and he was only moved up to 9th about 20 years later. And that was because he was just plain good and unbeatable and ALL the masters agreed upon his rank. Hmmm...makes it interesting, huh?

eh, just an opinion....

Exactly Right, YOUR opinion, and I agree you should have one..... but I totally disagree with you!

....he was only moved up to 9th about 20 years later....

Aaaaaaa right?!.... and by whom, may I inquire?

....that was because he was just plain good and unbeatable

At what pocket pool? Come on!!!!!!! Get real!!!!!!!!

ALL the masters agreed upon his rank.

What Masters..... where? who?

Give me a break.

 

[DoxN4cer]

... Now I do have a Questoin for Tim Kashino though.

Tim, Why ask the question?

Were you looking to cause some heated discussions between the EPAK and Tracy groups?

Were you trying to point out the Remy Presas, one of the arts you studied, also did his own thing?

Were you trying to point out that Tom Bolden formed his own organization?

Were you trying to point out that Jerome Barber one of your instructors also left and joind / formed and organization of Kenpo and Arnis?

Given your previous comments that you would like ot have positive discussions, I am really looking for the positive light of this.

Tim please educate me on this.

What was your reason for this post?

Thank You
:asian:

The reason for my post? Are you the motive police now? Just looking for other points of view, Rich. I don't need to educate you. You're already an educated man. Stop looking so hard, Rich. You're seeing things that aren't there. Take a deep breath, count to ten, hell... have a beer or two. CTFO, man. Are you lacking sleep again?

I did however find it remotely interesting that it was agreed upon by the many high ranking masters in attendance that students cannot promote their instructors. It makes sense that seniors promote juniors, and not the other way around. I suppose that's just my narrow way of thinking though.

Tim Kashino

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, on one hand the article seemed to haave several good, if depressing, points.

On the other, the Lewis Carroll excerpt that opens the article has a number of misquotes in it.

Me, I'm glad that a) I couldn't care less about the Big Picture in kenpo, except as a spectator sport; b) I have enough knowledge, books, and video--and a back yard--to keep me going lifetime.

So, if the Powers That (Wish They Could) Be ever come to control the Whole World of Kenpo, all I have to do is ignore them.

 

[Tgace]

The reason for my post? Are you the motive police now? Just looking for other points of view, Rich. I don't need to educate you. You're already an educated man. Stop looking so hard, Rich. You're seeing things that aren't there. Take a deep breath, count to ten, hell... have a beer or two. CTFO, man.

I did however found it remotely interesting that it was agreed upon by the many high ranking masters in attendance that students cannot promote their instructors. It makes sense that seniors promote juniors, and not the other way around. I suppose that's just my narrow way of thinking though.

Tim Kashino

You used to poke large animals with sticks when you were a kid didnt you Tim??

 

[DoxN4cer]

You used to poke large animals with sticks when you were a kid didnt you Tim??

How did you know? He He He. I used to play with matches too.

 

[Rich Parsons]

The reason for my post? Are you the motive police now? Just looking for other points of view, Rich. I don't need to educate you. You're already an educated man. Stop looking so hard, Rich. You're seeing things that aren't there. Take a deep breath, count to ten, hell... have a beer or two. CTFO, man. Are you lacking sleep again?

I did however find it remotely interesting that it was agreed upon by the many high ranking masters in attendance that students cannot promote their instructors. It makes sense that seniors promote juniors, and not the other way around. I suppose that's just my narrow way of thinking though.

Tim Kashino

Well Tim as to motive police. The answer is No. I do try to understand though.

I am not lacking sleep and I did have a couple of beers on Friday and Saturday.

As to "The reason for my post? . . . Just looking for other points of view, Rich." This is fine. Just curious.


As to only Seniors promoting Juniors. Then who promoted the first seniors?

Who promoted the seniors that promoted you? and on down the line?

Do I support just anyone being a GM or founder or claiming new arts? No.

So, Tim, we can CTFO if you want. I asked questions just looking for your opinion. And you take it for me attacking you. So, why do you not take your own advice. Drink a beer go to bed and CTFO. OR am I going to get another phone call from one of the seniors because I have disagreed with you, your opinion by your post, to ask me why I am stating what I am stating or asking what I am asking?

Enjoy your training, I know I do.

 

[DoxN4cer]

Well Tim as to motive police. The answer is No. I do try to understand though.

I am not lacking sleep and I did have a couple of beers on Friday and Saturday.

As to "The reason for my post? . . . Just looking for other points of view, Rich." This is fine. Just curious.

As to only Seniors promoting Juniors. Then who promoted the first seniors?

Who promoted the seniors that promoted you? and on down the line?

Do I support just anyone being a GM or founder or claiming new arts? No.

So, Tim, we can CTFO if you want. I asked questions just looking for your opinion. And you take it for me attacking you. So, why do you not take your own advice. Drink a beer go to bed and CTFO. OR am I going to get another phone call from one of the seniors because I have disagreed with you, your opinion by your post, to ask me why I am stating what I am stating or asking what I am asking?

Enjoy your training, I know I do.

Where you a stand-up philosopher in another life, Rich?

One can find the negative where ever one looks, especially when you're really looking for it. Once found, it spreads like a contagion.

I'm as CTFO'ed as they come, my friend; no beer necessary.

It doesn't matter who promoted the first seniors, or how they came to be the first. This sort of questioning is a closed loop of rhetoric. It does't lead anywhere or to anything truly productive, just more rhetoric and discontent.

I know what you're getting at Rich, but I feel that you contradict yourself in you're above statements. The two questions you posed are in opposition of the statement that follows them. Going by the philosophy that is posed in those questions you could declare yourself a GM and start handing out rank diplomas. And why not? After all, who promoted the guy that promoted you? What gave him the authority to do so? And so on. It's ridiculous.

There needs to be (and is) a set of standards that guide certain protcols. Please realize that these are simply customary (and ethical) guidelines for modern practitioners of martial arts. There isn't much you can do if someone chooses to operate outside of these guidelines besides talk about ot and find some kind of common ground, but once the rhetoric starts common ground is lost.


Tim Kashino

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Is there a point to all this tail chasing gentlemen?

The article refered to here is old. 1999 in fact.
I can think of numerous individuals in a variety of arts who were promoted by either panels of their peers, their students or those outside their organizations. I can also think of many who were promoted by their friends, cross promoted by 'good-ol-boy' networks or who flat out just printed it themselves.

So, I have to wonder...whats the real point(s)?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Where you a stand-up philosopher in another life, Rich?

One can find the negative where ever one looks, especially when you're really looking for it. Once found, it spreads like a contagion.

I'm as CTFO'ed as they come, my friend; no beer necessary.

It doesn't matter who promoted the first seniors, or how they came to be the first. This sort of questioning is a closed loop of rhetoric. It does't lead anywhere or to anything truly productive, just more rhetoric and discontent.

I know what you're getting at Rich, but I feel that you contradict yourself in you're above statements. The two questions you posed are in opposition of the statement that follows them. Going by the philosophy that is posed in those questions you could declare yourself a GM and start handing out rank diplomas. And why not? After all, who promoted the guy that promoted you? What gave him the authority to do so? And so on. It's ridiculous.

There needs to be (and is) a set of standards that guide certain protcols. Please realize that these are simply customary (and ethical) guidelines for modern practitioners of martial arts. There isn't much you can do if someone chooses to operate outside of these guidelines besides talk about ot and find some kind of common ground, but once the rhetoric starts common ground is lost.


Tim Kashino

Other lives I have lived, may have an impact on how I write. I do not deny it

Ethical and guidelines are all good. Who apoints the leader of a country. Som are kings, and hereditary, others were done by religion, others were done y the strongest man, others were dome in a republic way where the people have representatives choose a leader such as a Prime Minister or even in our case the electorate college. In the PM case those are elected representatives or chosen representatives depending upon the culture. In the case of President, the people vote, and then the electorate college votes. This is representation of the people choosing their leader. Then the leader can assign rank or promote people as (s)he sees fit. Politcal appointments are under review of the new leader, yet the military appointments other than positions such as Joint Chiefs, are not under review of the next new leader. It was and is assumed that those promoted in those ranks had meet the criteria for the new rank and had the respect of their peers and or supperiors or they would not have been received by their new peers. Yet the leader that signs off on the promotion recommendation and the Congress that approves the promotion of said officers are representatives of the people. They were put into place to represent them. So, those Juniors who have no rank and no understanding of the military are the ones signing off and approving the ranks of the officers of the military. Yet, with each new Congress every two years, they do not review each and every officer. They wait for the recommendations of the Military and the and the President, aka Commander and Chief and thereby head of the military, before the approve them. So, our senior most ranks down to that of Ensign or Lieutenant, are approved by the non military, before it is offical, otherwise it is just a field promotion of FRWOC'd. The senior promotions many times are politcal as well, yet they are also based upon skill and capabilities of the people involved.

So, even though my questiosn may disagree with the statements I made it does not mean the statements were not what I beleived in. The questions were to get you and others to think.

Hence my original question: Why ask it in the first place? Those who fall into the seniors must promote versus those who fall into the organization can elect or promote a leader, have their beliefs. and are not likely to change their minds. And it will drive people to make thier rhetoric posts, and statements of faith and belief. Not everyone will be made happy or even satisfactory.

I did not mean it in a negative manner to question you. I was curious as to your reasoning. i.e. Some grow just from the experience of asking the question. Others grow from debating the question. Others can grow from just listenting to the different points of view, even though they be rhetoric. For in understanding who others think you begin to understand the person themself.

Best Regards
:asian:

 

[loki09789]

"I'd like to teach the world to sing,
in perfect harmony,
I'd like to buy the world a Coke(...some Coke...some valium)
and keep it company....."

Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get us

 

[DoxN4cer]

Good one Paul!!!

From Rich Parsons:
"Some grow just from the experience of asking the question. Others grow from debating the question. Others can grow from just listenting to the different points of view, even though they be rhetoric. For in understanding who others think you begin to understand the person themself."

Well said. Real world appointments/promotions come from seniors and are are considered and endorsed by a chain of command/approving authority (seniors higher up than the candidate and his imediate seniors). Comparing congress and their constituents to martial arts organizations falls short in comparison. It's another circle of rhetoric.

From Bob Hubbard:
"Is there a point to all this tail chasing gentlemen?"

Well, yes there is. I guess you either missed it or want clarification. Please refer to this:

GRASSHOPPER: "Sifu, how do you know when you are a true master?"
SIFU: "When the other masters set a place for you at their table."

Ot course, I'm nobody. So what should my opinions matter? And why should they get anybody so spun up? I just wanted to see where the coversation would lead.

Tim Kashino

 

[Rainman]

"I'd like to teach the world to sing,
in perfect harmony,
I'd like to buy the world a Coke(...some Coke...some valium)
and keep it company....."

Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get us

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

You have my vote for adding valium to some folks dietary supplements.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Oh Gosh! I didn't mean anything other than I think its stupid that you create a martial Art organization and then put yourself at the top rank if you are a 5th degree and then move yourself up to 9th automatically...GOSH...I get a negative post for typing my opinion and obviously I wasn't clear...I'm sorry but that ticked me off...don't get mad at me, but I got ticked off seeing that because somebody misread my post...I was agreeing that I think its stupid to do what some people do...meaning that they make themselves the highest rank that they can be as soon as possible...I wish the guy/girl who gave me the negative post could take it back...impulsive, aren't you?

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Exactly Right, YOUR opinion, and I agree you should have one..... but I totally disagree with you!



Aaaaaaa right?!.... and by whom, may I inquire?



At what pocket pool? Come on!!!!!!! Get real!!!!!!!!



What Masters..... where? who?

Give me a break.

And Golden Dragon(giving me a negative was rude!), What I meant by Him being unbeatable was that he was the best in the organization. ATA was first formed, HU Lee was not a 9th degree...then so many years later, the Masters all agreed to move him up to 9th degree because of his skill...he made it up there gradually. And seriously, I was not talking about all arts, I just meant in ATA. I'm sorry, but I am offended by you for tearing up my post and saying that its stupid. I'm talking about the American Taekwondo Association, not YOUR organization. so, where do you get off acting like that?...its all true, so deal with it. 1600 schools all over America, and there are so many out of the country...and one of the top MA organizations in the US.

 

[Goldendragon7]

I am offended by you for tearing up my post and saying that its stupid

I SAID NO SUCH THING!!!!!!

1600 schools all over America

Quantity does not necessarily equate to Quality!!

Golden Dragon (giving me a negative was rude!)

Why, it's my opinion.... its all true, so deal with it....

:uhyeah: