The aikido thing

drop bear

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if he is only using qi for fighting he is missing out big time, my ki gets me served first in bars, stops traffic on busy roads so I can cross and a reasonably constant supply of girls young enough to be my daughter, ( note I am nearly 60 so not that young) if that doesn't happen to you you need more chi in your life
 

FriedRice

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On a positive note, I will say that my Aikido training really taught me how to fall and role without getting hurt and that those skills have saved me from injury more often than any of my MA training has helped me in violent confrontations. Also, I found after training in Hapkido that I had a much better idea how to apply the Aikido I had learned. There were times when I could use the larger, more flowing Aikido throws in sparring to great effect and that on those specific occasions they were frequently more effective than the Hapkido way. I'm just not sure that I'd ever have gotten there with the methods most Aikido schools use for training.

It certainly still a good tool to have. I had to use a few TJJ wrist locks during my bouncing days. Can't just go for the BJJ TD to mount on a drunk dude who's not violent.
 

FriedRice

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That's a good point. Ueshiba's earliest students were some of Kano's toughest Judo black belts. Aikido was more of a "master's course" for advanced martial artists in the early days. So that could definitely explain why so many current Aikidoka aren't getting it; They're starting Aikido without that advanced martial background.

Holy smokes, you're dropping a lot of knowledge on me about Ueshiba. I never bothered to read up about him b/c Aikido's not my thing...but I do see so many bad***, manly man's memes of him on my Facebook feed. If all this is true, then it's the modern Aikidokas that are full of ****....going the opposite of what Ueshiba's about.
 

jobo

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I dont drink and I'm happily married, so I'm good. :p

year, seen it a good few times including me twice, bloke thinks he is happy married, wife is cheating with someone with more qi, don't say you weren't warned !
 

Andrew Green

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While other arts, that maybe equally impractical in some ways, escape such criticism.

A lot of martial arts schools try to be everything to everyone, and that's why they get in trouble.

If I hand you a ham & cheese on whole wheat and advertise it as meat free, gluten free, dairy free & pork free... people are going to call me out on it.

Sometimes the contents can be just fine, but if what's on the packaging doesn't match those contents you'll have problems no matter what you do.
 

punisher73

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That's what always got me about this argument. According to the stories, Ueshiba was an ardent dojo stormer who would beat up on other fighters all the time. He seemingly loved to prove his Aikido against other martial artists. Yet for some reason, his modern disciples claim to be above all of that. Interesting paradigm shift if you ask me.

I always have trouble with these kinds of threads because of looking at what aikido SHOULD be and has in its curriculum versus HOW aikido is trained and taught. Ueshiba was a legitimate martial artist and fighter who had other martial artists join him and his method. At one point, Ueshiba's dojo was called the "Hell Dojo" for the tough training that ocurred there.

Fast forward and the focus of the art became self-improvement and a way to create peace (according to Ueshiba's own words). When that focus started to happen, the type of realistic training also went by the wayside in many cases.

Ueshiba's original art had LOTS of striking (atemi) in it to vulnerable spots. If you look at his book, "Budo" you will see the pictures and he is striking the temple etc. with a middle knuckle fist. He even had the quote (% may be slightly off), but he said Aikido is 75% atemi. Far cry from what we see today.
 

oftheherd1

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It has nothing to do with superiority, it's all about the proper classification and purpose of the art form. Aikido simply isn't a combat art. A self-preservation/improvement art, perhaps, but a combat art? Not even close. Certainly there's some spill over, but saying that Aikido is something akin to Judo, Bjj, Muay Thai, Boxing, etc. is simply a mis-classification. Once Aikido is classified correctly, all the malice towards it will be avoided.

As for Ki, hey, whatever you want to believe in. I once believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, so it's all good.

I'm going to guess you stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy when they stopped working good for you. I will do the same if ki ever stops working for me. So far it hasn't.

One of the things I have yet to see anybody do is actually comment on what it appears Aikido does, at least as I see it. The Aikido I have seen does not intend to hurt opponents. An opponent may indeed be hurt, but that is normally not the intent. Aikido will diligently keep throwing an opponent around, or use some other technique, until the opponent gets tired or too many bumps, and leaves.

Of course I have never studied Aikido nor have I seen every style of Aikido so I may be wrong.
 

jobo

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Bloke with a sporty car is just making up for weak ki.
there no dennying sporty cars confuse womens qi meter, but unfortunately only till you marry them and decided you don't need a sporty car any more and trade it in for a low chi practcle family car and then suddenly they see you in your chiless glory and immediately start putting out feelers for a male more endowed with ki (or with a sport car, which ever comes first ,)
 

punisher73

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Sorry, just some additional thoughts.

One thing that is highly emphasized in Aikido (at least from my experience) is the idea of de-escalation and avoiding the conflict in the first place (not saying others don't btw). By understanding your "center" in practical terms. What does it take to make me mad? What does a person have to do for me to really feel threatened/scared/angry? How do I put that into place to remain calm to de-escalate a situation instead of feeding into it?
 

skribs

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IMO, there are some weakness in the Aikido system.

1. Over emphasize on the wrist control - If you control your opponent wrist, not only his elbow joint is still free, the distance between you and him is too far. It gives your opponent too much space to counter you.

2. The lacking of leg skill - If you just block your opponent's leg, he can step over. If you scoop, sweep, hook, lift, ... your opponent's leg, it will be much harder for him to escape.

3. The lacking of "give before take" - You can't always wait for your opponent to attack you. You have to train how to attack your opponent too. You need to train how to step in, set up, and ...

4. ...

I can't speak for Aikido, but for Hapkido (which I believe is similar) none of these are true.

  1. Wrist control is most often done in close to the opponent. That's where it causes the most pain.
  2. Footwork is more important than wrist control for take-downs, so how leg skill is lacking is foreign to me.
  3. Probably true of Aikido, in Hapkido we train offensively as well (for us it starts around green belt).
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I can't speak for Aikido, but for Hapkido (which I believe is similar) none of these are true.

  1. Wrist control is most often done in close to the opponent. That's where it causes the most pain.
  2. Footwork is more important than wrist control for take-downs, so how leg skill is lacking is foreign to me.
1. If you use both hands to control your opponent's wrist, your opponent's other hand is still free.

2. Leg skill is different from footwork. Leg skill is to use your leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

yamaarashi.gif


hizaguruma.gif
 
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hoshin1600

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:facepalm: havnt we beat this horse enough.
the issue as i see it is that Ueshiba changed over time. his final product , he called Aikido. but like many asian things the art is only a medium for something else that is more cerebral. in this case the art of Aikido is a medium that Ueshiba used to express his philosophy. much like the writer Ann Rand used the medium of novels and writing to express her philosphy. Aikido was only supposed to be the medium for the philosophy but as more and more learned the art (as far as i can tell) what is missing is the philosophy part because students today dont care about some old guy rambling on about religion and the oneness of the universe. but you cant separate the two sides and expect the technique to fit and work well for your new philosophy of self defense and the MMA mind set of pressure testing. the two just do not go well together. so while it may seem to be a contradiction that Ueshiba is supposed to be a true martial artist but his art kinda fails are fighting its not a contradiction. he was a martial arts who used the medium for a different purpose and his purpose was to redefine a nation that was set on war and destruction. dont forget all this was happening in a war time Japan. the country was war crazy and Ueshiba didnt agree with this so he used martial arts (which was being used as a propaganda by the Government) to show an art of NON CONTENTION. which by design was anti pressure testing and anti fighting. so if it dosent hold up to someones standard of effective fighting ....yeah that was the point.
 

BrendanF

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students today dont care about some old guy rambling on about religion and the oneness of the universe.

Can you provide any evidence of him 'rambling about the oneness of the universe'?


his purpose was to redefine a nation that was set on war and destruction. dont forget all this was happening in a war time Japan. the country was war crazy and Ueshiba didnt agree with this so he used martial arts (which was being used as a propaganda by the Government) to show an art of NON CONTENTION. which by design was anti pressure testing and anti fighting. so if it dosent hold up to someones standard of effective fighting ....yeah that was the point.

If so why was he involved with homicidal, right wing nationalist groups such as the genyosha?

He taught Imperial soldiers to kill folks.. during the war. I've seen photos of him doing this. I'll find them if you can't.
 

drop bear

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I'm going to guess you stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy when they stopped working good for you. I will do the same if ki ever stops working for me. So far it hasn't.

One of the things I have yet to see anybody do is actually comment on what it appears Aikido does, at least as I see it. The Aikido I have seen does not intend to hurt opponents. An opponent may indeed be hurt, but that is normally not the intent. Aikido will diligently keep throwing an opponent around, or use some other technique, until the opponent gets tired or too many bumps, and leaves.

Of course I have never studied Aikido nor have I seen every style of Aikido so I may be wrong.

Yeah. I heard that. Good for bouncing because you can use it to subdue people with it.

That is apparently a misconception. And about the least practical way of achieving the result you are suggesting.

I can spar people in mma and not cripple people. Let alone jits or wrestling. Aikido can't.
 

drop bear

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Sorry, just some additional thoughts.

One thing that is highly emphasized in Aikido (at least from my experience) is the idea of de-escalation and avoiding the conflict in the first place (not saying others don't btw). By understanding your "center" in practical terms. What does it take to make me mad? What does a person have to do for me to really feel threatened/scared/angry? How do I put that into place to remain calm to de-escalate a situation instead of feeding into it?

Yeah. I was talking to the parent of a jits kid about this. (And made a mess of it at the time)

But the composure that wins fights is also the composure that keeps you out of fights.
 

hoshin1600

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Can you provide any evidence of him 'rambling about the oneness of the universe'?

Budo is a divine path established by the Gods that leads to the truth, goodness. and beauty; it is a spiritual path reflecting the unlimited, absolute nature of the universe and the ultimate grand design or creation.
Through the virtue aquired from devoted practice, one can percieve the principals of heaven and earth. Such techniques originate from the subtle interaction of water and fire, revealing the path of heaven and earth and the spirit of the imperial way: these applied techniques also play the marvelous functioning of KOTODAMA, the principal that directs and harmonizes all things in the world, resulting in the unification of heaven, earth, god and humankind.

Morihei Ueshiba 1938


All things , material and spirtual, originate from the one source and are related as if they were one family. The past, present, and future are all contianed in the life force. the universe emerged and developed from one source, and we evolved thought the optimal process of unification and harminization.

kinda sounds like an old man rambling about the universe to me.
 
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hoshin1600

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If so why was he involved with homicidal, right wing nationalist groups such as the genyosha?

are you saying he was Yakuza?
i dont know anything about his ties to the group as you suggest. i was not implying he was or was not against the war at the time rather after the war and seeing the results he taught the principal of The Art of Peace.

so i just looked in one of my books as reference and it seems that Yutaro Yano , a retired naval commander was a Omoto- Kyo follower and had links to the black dragon society...was the one who invited and convinced Onisaburo to travel to Mongolia. thus Ueshiba also went to Mongolia for the "Great Mongolian Adventure".
i dont think we need to go down this rabbit hole of history.. Ueshiba's political view was not pertinent to my point.
 

hoshin1600

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every art has an underlying philosophy that everything else is built upon.
i say:
philosophy gives rise to an inner narrative.
the narrative of what a martial art should look like conditions the methodology and training within the art.

if you separate the philosophy from the technique you are essentially tearing out the soul of the art and playing Dr. Fankenstein. we know that never works out well. many have taken out the soul and replaced it with their own views , then they wonder why the results are sub par.
 
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