Testing: Time requirement vs. When the student is ready

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you also arbitrarily elongate the not talented students workload so that they get to be bored as well? I mean we wouldn't want them to miss out on that experience.

My focus is training the student p into the system until he reaches a point that challenges him, at which point the student gets all of the benefits from being challenged to master the material that the not talented student will get. Different students will reach that point at different times and at a different depth in the curriculum.

Oh, there's nothing arbitrary about it. The pre-set points are minimum amounts of time it would take a student to receive the information. As I said, if they came from mainline NGA, for instance, they might well be ready earlier than that. Then there are those who are progressing (skillwise) faster than they are actually ready (attitudinally). For them, I extend the time quite purposefully, because that attitude is part of what I'm helping them train. It's part of what will keep them out of conflicts, which is a factor in self-protection.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Entitlement? Assuming a student meets the standards of the rank, then yes, I think the student should awarded the next rank. If the instructor has some level of "understanding" as a requirement then of course the student should meet that as well. Adding arbitrary time to a student's progression doesn't add struggle, it will add boredom unless they are permitted to get to material that challenges them both mentally and physically.

Yes I agree its usually wrong to add arbitrary time and in some ways its cheating the student. If the student meets the standards in terms of skill and, as some instructors might include as a requirement, technical understanding, than the student should be promoted or should be allowed to test. If an instructor wants to add time because they want the student to be patient, well, the student has already demonstrated patience by acquiring the necessary skill and whatever other requirements the instructor has for advancement. Patience is good but having a student take more time even when they've met all the requirements because you want them to be patient I believe should not be done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes I agree its usually wrong to add arbitrary time and in some ways its cheating the student. If the student meets the standards in terms of skill and, as some instructors might include as a requirement, technical understanding, than the student should be promoted or should be allowed to test. If an instructor wants to add time because they want the student to be patient, well, the student has already demonstrated patience by acquiring the necessary skill and whatever other requirements the instructor has for advancement. Patience is good but having a student take more time even when they've met all the requirements because you want them to be patient I believe should not be done.

That assumes that technical skill and comprehension are the only requirements. Since I'm focused on self-defense, they are not. Part of my training is to help them develop the emotional and life skills that will help avoid conflict. If someone is progressing fast, and pushing themselves because they really want to learn, that's not a problem. If they are progressing fast, and chafing at the requirements because they don't like having to wait, that's something I will help them with.

 

[mograph]

Patience is a component of self-defense, yes?

 

[Balrog]

What method does your school use? Which one do you think is better and why?

The answer is yes. There is a minimum time requirement, and the student has to be ready.

 

[JR 137]

I completely understand and empathize with the argument that if a student demonstrates the skills, knowledge and I guess maturity to promote, then they shouldn't be held back because of some arbitrary time requirement.

My counter to that is there's no substitute for experience. This is obviously far more critical in dan promotions than kyu promotions, but it still applies.

Furthermore, students can always improve. Just because the student has demonstrated sufficient proficiency doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. Just because said student might be the best athlete in the dojo doesn't mean he/she can refine that skill further. If you're comparing that student to the norm, then it doesn't make sense to make him/her wait. The true competition in MA IMO isn't outdoing anyone else; it's about outdoing yourself. Being better than the rest of the class or trying to be as good as the rest of the class is irrelevant; being the best you can be is the only thing that should matter.

I know 90% of the syllabus in my current system up to and including 1st dan. I'm currently a 4th kyu. According to the logic of why hold me back, my teacher should teach me that last 10% I don't know and rank me at 2nd dan. According to my logic, I'm happy improving what I already know. I'm far better because of it. When I get to 2nd dan on the timetable that I'm currently on (whatever that timetable actually is), I'll be so much better. What's the point of learning to just to get a belt? What am I going to do with it, wave it in someone's face and scare them off? Let it inflate my ego? Use it to get some credibility in karate circles?

I'll get there when I get there, and better a moment later than earlier IMO.

 

[Juany118]

I would also side with the "when ready" but I can understand why certain places may put a time limit on it. In my school we have levels until level 10 which sees you awarded a black belt. After black we have a red belt which signifies the fact that you are a Guro. The head instructor is the one who determines if you test or not and you can even test for multiple levels if he thinks you are ready. I did that once, and there is one person in the school we nicknamed "the Unicorn" who has double tested twice so far. On the flip side there are also people who have been taken aside and told they weren't testing when test time rolls around (we try to do testing quarterly.)

Thing is some organizations may see telling someone they are, in essence, not ready to test as risking a paying customer walking out the door so maybe they put the training time requirement in so someone doesn't feel slighted come test time?

I understand the idea some people have put forth regarding always having room to improve but I think that can be addressed by the "judge" accounting for that when they are considering if the particular student is prepared to test.

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[JR 137]

I understand the idea some people have put forth regarding always having room to improve but I think that can be addressed by the "judge" accounting for that when they are considering if the particular student is prepared to test.

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There's always room to improve. We always do the first kata we learn as white belts when we do kata. It's kind of part of the warmup process and putting ourselves into the kata mentality if you will. The 4th dans I train with claim they can improve their performance of it.

But there's also a point where you move on. Like everything, there's a balance. Every teacher's "that's good enough, now you're ready for the next step" level is different. Some teachers' level of that is far too low (for right and wrong motives), others' are too high. It all depends on the teacher.

 

[Juany118]

There's always room to improve. We always do the first kata we learn as white belts when we do kata. It's kind of part of the warmup process and putting ourselves into the kata mentality if you will. The 4th dans I train with claim they can improve their performance of it.

But there's also a point where you move on. Like everything, there's a balance. Every teacher's "that's good enough, now you're ready for the next step" level is different. Some teachers' level of that is far too low (for right and wrong motives), others' are too high. It all depends on the teacher.

Oh I totally agree there is always room for improvement. The minute even a "master" believes they can't improve stagnation starts. My only point is to say that having fixed periods of time before one is capable of testing can also lead to issues. As an example in my school you do not start training extensively in Chin Na and ground fighting until level 6 and higher. Those skills are very important, imo, if your intention in learning the MAs is to defend yourself or others. Having someone who is ready to learn those skills locked out for a time simply due to a set time limit seems counter productive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would also side with the "when ready" but I can understand why certain places may put a time limit on it. In my school we have levels until level 10 which sees you awarded a black belt. After black we have a red belt which signifies the fact that you are a Guro. The head instructor is the one who determines if you test or not and you can even test for multiple levels if he thinks you are ready. I did that once, and there is one person in the school we nicknamed "the Unicorn" who has double tested twice so far. On the flip side there are also people who have been taken aside and told they weren't testing when test time rolls around (we try to do testing quarterly.)

Thing is some organizations may see telling someone they are, in essence, not ready to test as risking a paying customer walking out the door so maybe they put the training time requirement in so someone doesn't feel slighted come test time?

I understand the idea some people have put forth regarding always having room to improve but I think that can be addressed by the "judge" accounting for that when they are considering if the particular student is prepared to test.

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I suspect the timing requirement by organizations is mostly meant to keep over-enthusiastic new instructors from promoting students too quickly, or from holding students back too long. Experienced instructors will usually be able to make those determinations of readiness quite easily, while a new instructor may feel a bit lost. By giving them a timeline (say, first colored belt in 12 weeks), they can be more realistic. As they gain experience, those timing marks carry less significance.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't find the training, or the material, boring. In fact, the longer I do this stuff, the more I find value and interest in the fundamentals and basics. Our first form of the system, the simplest and the easiest to remember, is the most valuable.

Sheesh, I'm glad I belong to a school that just doesn't give a crap about belts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't find the training, or the material, boring. In fact, the longer I do this stuff, the more I find value and interest in the fundamentals and basics. Our first form of the system, the simplest and the easiest to remember, is the most valuable.

Sheesh, I'm glad I belong to a school that just doesn't give a crap about belts.

It's not nearly so much an issue within a school as it is within a forum. I can't remember ever discussing any of this during my training, except to ask training partners what they needed to work on for an upcoming test. It's the sort of thing that is just normally accepted as part of the training if it exists, and it never really matters that much at any moment, except at goalposts.

 

[Blindside]

I don't find the training, or the material, boring. In fact, the longer I do this stuff, the more I find value and interest in the fundamentals and basics. Our first form of the system, the simplest and the easiest to remember, is the most valuable.

Sheesh, I'm glad I belong to a school that just doesn't give a crap about belts.

I don't give a crap about belts either. Actually these days I don't offer any rank before an instructor rank and only people who are interested in actually being an instructor will enter on that track. Everyone is a student and some of us in the group are instructors. One of the things I like about this is that there isn't really any beginner material, you have fundamentals everyone practices, and you have drills, techniques, and fights that challenge your ability as you progress. Keep doing it, get better.

I suspect I lose people who need those goalposts to see their progress, actually I know I do, but it isn't worth changing my approach to not lose those guys.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't give a crap about belts either. Actually these days I don't offer any rank before an instructor rank and only people who are interested in actually being an instructor will enter on that track. Everyone is a student and some of us in the group are instructors. One of the things I like about this is that there isn't really any beginner material, you have fundamentals everyone practices, and you have drills, techniques, and fights that challenge your ability as you progress. Keep doing it, get better.

I suspect I lose people who need those goalposts to see their progress, actually I know I do, but it isn't worth changing my approach to not lose those guys.

Agreed. There are folks who want/need those goalposts. There are folks who want/need to not have them. There are a bunch of folks who don't really care either way (I fall in this group) and are happy working with whatever we end up in. It's a good thing that there are programs that cater to different groups. Those who dislike those waypoints won't be happy in my program, just as those who want/need them to be there won't be happy in yours.

 

[Wilde]

What method does your school use? Which one do you think is better and why?

At my TKD school it's basically who ever pays the fee and has the minimum time in rank and requirements. I prefer the way my Karate Sensei does testing, he tests in class when he feels you are ready to advance.

 

[Buka]

I never had a criteria written down for Black Belt.. And when it came time for a student to make black, it was the only rank that didn't have a test involved, I just promoted them. And always on a night when the gym was packed, and usually with guests and/or with one of my many instructors.

There was a certain attitude about a criteria, though. Posted on one of the walls was info about "green belt", which I considered half way to black. (it went green, brown, black) It said,
"A green belt has to know how to fight. Doesn't necessarily have to be good at it yet, but must be prepared and able to do it every single night. You can hit a green belt with a stick, a green belt does not care."
Posted below those words was a nifty photo I had of a military K-9 in full, flying assault of a guy in full bite suit, who is whipping the crap out of the dog with a stick - while the dog is just tearing him a new one.

I know that might sound silly, macho, whatever, but it was part of what we considered our Martial attitude. Fighting and fitness was the second biggest part of what we always did. (You specifically got fit for fighting, not health) (I know, my bad) Being a lady or a gentleman was the first. As for black belt, beside knowing the system inside and out, you had to be able to fight like a son of a *****. Anyone, anywhere, under any circumstances, in any kind of fighting. Even if it was fighting you weren't familiar with, you just did it, got your butt kicked, and politely and sincerely asked those who kicked your butt for some instruction. (We got our butts whooped many times)

I'm not saying that's right, wrong or any better or worse than anything else. It's just what we did.
And it sure is fun.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Patience is a component of self-defense, yes?

Well yes, it does take patience to learn self defense skills, you aren't going to learn them overnight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well yes, it does take patience to learn self defense skills, you aren't going to learn them overnight.

I think his point was that patience can help avoid conflict, which is much better than having to defend oneself.

 

[Zoltan97]

I'm a judoka at college. Since we only meet August to December and January to May, he counts classes and months in time and I believe includes time out of school if we can find another dojo to work at while home.

For orange belt I forget the months needed, but for classes I believe it's 22 or 32 (maybe 30? Sorry, I'm on break, I shouldn't be thinking numbers).

 

[Juany118]

I think his point was that patience can help avoid conflict, which is much better than having to defend oneself.

You would be surprised how much patience works in preventing any conflict, even in my line of work. If you don't have a any exigent circumstances that dictate you need to rush things, don't. In almost 20 years I have seen a physical conflict start because a co-worker wanted instant compliance when there was no compelling need for it. 5 minutes out of your life using verbal judo vs physical is sometimes more effective.