Tendon and power

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's not Kung Fu, it's Karate. And it's not 'tendon', it's 'tanden'.

Other terms used are 'hara' and 'dantien' or 'seiken tanden'.

Often illustrated in Sanchin Kata.

Sanchin – Abdominal Breathing – Core and Tanden

“In Karate, Seika Tanden or using Hara is literally bracing your core or creating IAP (Interabdominal Pressure).” Sanchin Kata is an isometric workout that has been passed down via the Nahate system over the ages. In Sanchin, Fukushiki Kokyu, or abdominal breathing, is utilized to maintain a...

tanzadeh.com

It doesn't generate power as such. It provides a stable platform for power to be generated and delivered.

It is Kung fu, which is where you got karate in the first place.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah, I know about that, trained a bit.... did not think it was relevant to the question about all strength coming from the tendons

Muscle changing classic. It doesn’t generate power as such.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There are 2 kind of CMA teachers.

- The 1st kind only care about how to land his fist on his opponent's faces.
- The 2nd kind only like to talk about "internal this and internal that ...", "Yi -> Qi -> Li", "The body is Yin. The mind is Yang", ...

IMO, as long as you can use your fist to knock down your opponent, why should you care about it is muscle power, or tendon power?

Is the Google search function written by C++ or Jave? Why should you care as long as it works?

Because some people only like to drive cars and some others like to understand how it works and also drive it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You obviously know waaaaay more than me. But.....there are sports sources, medical sources etc digging into the tendon and fascia thing. I think there is relevance to us. We all talk about the internal aspects of skeletal alignment etc, seems like this could possibly relevant in the same vein

Without the structure in alignment, the rest won’t happen. Most people think they are correctly aligned, but that is rarely a complete truth.

 

[ForGranted]

Without the structure in alignment, the rest won’t happen. Most people think they are correctly aligned, but that is rarely a complete truth.

Structure might refer to biotensegrity right? There is a theory that the human body is a tensegrity structure. It makes more sense about tendon. But can it produce striking power as well?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Many kung fu styles talk about using the power of tendon. I am not a kung fu guy so this really interests me. How can tendon generate power? Everyone please shares some of your thoughts.

In the way we train gung fu, there are stages to the training. Often, people conflate one of these stages with a system or a complete methodology, this is incorrect. The first stage is the training of stability, conditions, endurance, and coordination of the body. The second stage involves precise movement while adding some power and speed. The third stage is training control, concentration, and mobility of the precise movements with power and speed. The most important overall aspect is the education of the bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments, and skin with precise control of the breath. Often, the words used to express skill, or refinement of these attributes may sound esoteric, but that has much to do with inadequate translation of an idea. These usually are describing a feeling in the body, rather than a visible skill which can misrepresent gung fu in general. Lung jing for instance means refinement but literally translates as dragon skill. When it comes to expressions of power, occupational strength is “ lick” it can be useful but it may hinder training if it is developed with bad habits. There is explosive power but it must be controlled to be useful, this is “Ching” which is “lick” in a refined state. The output of power is directly related from the stability of the body in relationship to the gravitational forces of the earth. The downward force is used to create the upward force, the inward force is used to create the outward force (this is what @Bill Mattocks was referring to.) Force to the left creates the force to the right and so on. This is how we are able to stand up. Expressing and expounding on these forces is how we get to various other forces that are generally described as pulling, pushing, pressing, lifting, whipping, circling, torsion, twisting etc. We seek proficiency with hand, eyes, body, legs, and steps. Unity of these things allows the ability to maintain the stability while moving and striking. We use terms like “ the bottom moves the top, inside moves the outside, left moves the right etc. to describe this idea. These things train the three bridges, the bridges are controlled by the center of each bridge which must be controlled to the point of locking and releasing individually. The bone alignment must be accomplished in order to gain the muscle sense which allows for fine control of the three lever systems in the body. Precise and in depth knowledge of anatomy of bones , muscles, joints, fascia, and skin are necessary for a thorough understanding. Muscles work in groups and multiple joints are usually in play in most motions, so mechanical understanding must be appreciated to be able to understand when certain actions, inactions, tensions,or alignments are not effectively adding speed, power, or efficiency to a motion. These inadequacies or defects become more apparent when we are fatigued or injured. The entirety of the performance of motion in the body can be fundamentally altered by these defects, ie a “limp”. This can be as simple as an unbalanced development from occupational habits like chopping wood or sitting at a desk for example.

So, I could talk on this for hours and hours but let’s get to “using the tendon to generate force”. It’s important to remember that there is tendon at the end of muscles. In gung fu practice we should feel the body go up and forward. This cannot happen when the muscles are in a fully contracted state. The muscles can be in contraction, extension, or active contraction. In these states the ends of the muscles pull toward the center or belly of the muscle during contraction and both ends pull away from center to extend. In active contraction first the muscle extends and then the parts of the muscle you want to contract perform whatever. To be able to have good control over these things requires proper alignment and knowing the feeling is a skill developed over time and practice. There are cues and guidelines in training to help find the feeling of “letting go” of some while actively contracting others. This idea leads into soft vs hard discussions which are woefully inadequate descriptors. It is true that many athletes find these things themselves through training and experience, but for most of us, we need help to develop these skills. The idea of using tendon or “softness” really has to do with an in depth understanding of alignment and efficiency of effort. It is not magical or mystical, but it is unusual and even rare outside of martial arts. It’s a much easier concept to experience in person than it is to discuss in print. I hope this lengthy post helps in some way. I’m happy to discuss more if anyone has a question I will do my best to answer to the best of my knowledge and ability.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Structure might refer to biotensegrity right? There is a theory that the human body is a tensegrity structure. It makes more sense about tendon. But can it produce striking power as well?

It is that, but it is several consistent concepts overlapping each other. Alignment is necessary to “structure” but it is more than “ stand like this” because it is not useful without being able to keep it while moving. I don’t like the word “produce” in this context. “ improves” is a better adjective here. I can still produce force without alignment, I can produce improved quality of action with better alignment, and even more improved quality of action including increased ballistic force when aligned and structured.

 

[ForGranted]

It is that, but it is several consistent concepts overlapping each other. Alignment is necessary to “structure” but it is more than “ stand like this” because it is not useful without being able to keep it while moving. I don’t like the word “produce” in this context. “ improves” is a better adjective here. I can still produce force without alignment, I can produce improved quality of action with better alignment, and even more improved quality of action including increased ballistic force when aligned and structured.

I'm quite bad in using words . I wonder how can one keep structure when moving?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm quite bad in using words . I wonder how can one keep structure when moving?

Well that’s the skill that is produced by going through the training for years on end. If you have balance, posture, and coordination when moving, the punching, kicking, trapping, controlling, locking, etc are potentially more available and can be honed by practicing against other martial artists from various arts. These things are not unique to CMA but they are found in most high level martial artists to varying degrees, even if they use different terms or phrases to describe it or teach it. I would argue that many CMA don’t know it, don’t teach it, don’t apply it. Sifu Woo dedicated his entire life to the study of martial arts in the pursuit of developing a methodology to efficiently teach this. He was a phenomenal example of both driving and understanding the vehicle.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It is Kung fu, which is where you got karate in the first place.

Hmmm.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Hmmm.

No disrespect intended sir.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I wonder how can one keep structure when moving?

The structure is "elastic". There are 2 models, the push model (for power) and the pull model (for speed).

When your leg pushes the ground, borrow the counter force from the ground, and send your power through your leg, hip, body, shoulder, arm, fist. that's push model.

When you use your hands to smash a fly, your hand goes first, your arm follows, your shoulder follows, your body follows, that's pull model.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I'm quite bad in using words . I wonder how can one keep structure when moving?

Full disclosure, I’m a student of Wing Woo Gar, not any sort of expert on anything.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No disrespect intended sir.

No offense taken, sir.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I wonder how can one keep structure when moving?

Proper vertical alignment, centered core (hara, tanden) and proper tension in hips and legs when stepping will go a long way in keeping structure while in motion. The concepts are not complex, IMO.

Well that’s the skill that is produced by going through the training for years on end

Yeah. This too. While not complex, it's not easy to develop the unity of body movement. It has been one skill I've been working on with kata for 30 years. I'm almost happy with my current skill level.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The structure is "elastic". There are 2 models, the push model (for power) and the pull model (for speed).

When your leg pushes the ground, borrow the counter force from the ground, and send your power through your leg, hip, body, shoulder, arm, fist. that's push model.

When you use your hands to smash a fly, your hand goes first, your arm follows, your shoulder follows, your body follows, that's pull model.

Proper vertical alignment, centered core (hara, tanden) and proper tension in hips and legs when stepping will go a long way in keeping structure while in motion. The concepts are not complex, IMO.

Yeah. This too. While not complex, it's not easy to develop the unity of body movement. It has been one skill I've been working on with kata for 30 years. I'm almost happy with my current skill level.

It’s difficult (for me) to articulate some ideas in text. Terms and definitions often vary and may muddy the waters of discussions of this nature. I think we are mostly on the same page. What methods do you use to teach this to your students might be a cool thread to off shoot from this one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What methods do you use to teach this to your students might be a cool thread to off shoot from this one.

The push model can be developed from the heavy bag training.

The pull model can be developed as:

- Both you and your opponent have right sides forward.
- You use your leading right hand to punch on your opponent's back left shoulder.
- Your opponent tries to use his leading right arm to block your punch.

Test for 10 punches and record the succeed/failure rate. This can be an interested test on the power and speed trade off. If you concentrate 100% on power (push model), your successful rate will be low. If you concentrate 100% on speed (pull model), your successful rate will be high.

 

[Badhabits]

In the way we train gung fu, there are stages to the training. Often, people conflate one of these stages with a system or a complete methodology, this is incorrect. The first stage is the training of stability, conditions, endurance, and coordination of the body. The second stage involves precise movement while adding some power and speed. The third stage is training control, concentration, and mobility of the precise movements with power and speed. The most important overall aspect is the education of the bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments, and skin with precise control of the breath. Often, the words used to express skill, or refinement of these attributes may sound esoteric, but that has much to do with inadequate translation of an idea. These usually are describing a feeling in the body, rather than a visible skill which can misrepresent gung fu in general. Lung jing for instance means refinement but literally translates as dragon skill. When it comes to expressions of power, occupational strength is “ lick” it can be useful but it may hinder training if it is developed with bad habits. There is explosive power but it must be controlled to be useful, this is “Ching” which is “lick” in a refined state. The output of power is directly related from the stability of the body in relationship to the gravitational forces of the earth. The downward force is used to create the upward force, the inward force is used to create the outward force (this is what @Bill Mattocks was referring to.) Force to the left creates the force to the right and so on. This is how we are able to stand up. Expressing and expounding on these forces is how we get to various other forces that are generally described as pulling, pushing, pressing, lifting, whipping, circling, torsion, twisting etc. We seek proficiency with hand, eyes, body, legs, and steps. Unity of these things allows the ability to maintain the stability while moving and striking. We use terms like “ the bottom moves the top, inside moves the outside, left moves the right etc. to describe this idea. These things train the three bridges, the bridges are controlled by the center of each bridge which must be controlled to the point of locking and releasing individually. The bone alignment must be accomplished in order to gain the muscle sense which allows for fine control of the three lever systems in the body. Precise and in depth knowledge of anatomy of bones , muscles, joints, fascia, and skin are necessary for a thorough understanding. Muscles work in groups and multiple joints are usually in play in most motions, so mechanical understanding must be appreciated to be able to understand when certain actions, inactions, tensions,or alignments are not effectively adding speed, power, or efficiency to a motion. These inadequacies or defects become more apparent when we are fatigued or injured. The entirety of the performance of motion in the body can be fundamentally altered by these defects, ie a “limp”. This can be as simple as an unbalanced development from occupational habits like chopping wood or sitting at a desk for example.

So, I could talk on this for hours and hours but let’s get to “using the tendon to generate force”. It’s important to remember that there is tendon at the end of muscles. In gung fu practice we should feel the body go up and forward. This cannot happen when the muscles are in a fully contracted state. The muscles can be in contraction, extension, or active contraction. In these states the ends of the muscles pull toward the center or belly of the muscle during contraction and both ends pull away from center to extend. In active contraction first the muscle extends and then the parts of the muscle you want to contract perform whatever. To be able to have good control over these things requires proper alignment and knowing the feeling is a skill developed over time and practice. There are cues and guidelines in training to help find the feeling of “letting go” of some while actively contracting others. This idea leads into soft vs hard discussions which are woefully inadequate descriptors. It is true that many athletes find these things themselves through training and experience, but for most of us, we need help to develop these skills. The idea of using tendon or “softness” really has to do with an in depth understanding of alignment and efficiency of effort. It is not magical or mystical, but it is unusual and even rare outside of martial arts. It’s a much easier concept to experience in person than it is to discuss in print. I hope this lengthy post helps in some way. I’m happy to discuss more if anyone has a question I will do my best to answer to the best of my knowledge and ability.

You touched on inadequacies becoming apparent when fatigued- this was an aha moment for me long ago. Train to the point of muscular exhaustion then keep going. The body starts operating more efficiently because it has to. There's no energy to waste. As a heavyset guy who tends towards tension, training in this state of exhaustion really allowed me to feel that state of relaxed efficient movement. My teachers had been saying relax relax relax...... I thought I had been.....the light went on after experiencing that totally fatigued movement a couple times. It was like an epiphany "so this is what they mean by relaxed movement!!!!" A feeling of effortlessness in movement

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

You touched on inadequacies becoming apparent when fatigued- this was an aha moment for me long ago. Train to the point of muscular exhaustion then keep going. The body starts operating more efficiently because it has to. There's no energy to waste. As a heavyset guy who tends towards tension, training in this state of exhaustion really allowed me to feel that state of relaxed efficient movement. My teachers had been saying relax relax relax...... I thought I had been.....the light went on after experiencing that totally fatigued movement a couple times. It was like an epiphany "so this is what they mean by relaxed movement!!!!" A feeling of effortlessness in movement

Yes. My teachers pushed us to the point of vomiting from exertion. That’s an efficient way of teaching it but few people will actually commit and let you drive them that hard. Most people want immediate results and want proof before they start that they will get XYZ within a certain amount of time. I can’t tell how long that epiphany moment will take for each person. There were many AHA moments for me and many plateaus in between as well.

 

[Fungus]

Quantifying mechanical loading and elastic strain energy of the human Achilles tendon during walking and running​

"Tendons cannot generate force actively, yet their elastic behavior upon loading influences the muscle–tendon unit's function during locomotion...."
-- Quantifying mechanical loading and elastic strain energy of the human Achilles tendon during walking and running - Scientific Reports

So during dynamical movements, the tendons "buffer" energy created my the muscle, much like a spring. Relating and similar to what Gyakuto said in post #8 as well.