Teaching beginners lots of moves

Ranger87

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Of all the places I have trained I really like the way my Sifu teaches. While my style of kung fu is huge, every class we devote a 15 minute or so block to drilling core combinations. From no sash to black sash, those core fighting combinations are drilled into your head. Then, as you are introduced to various techniques and the over all fighting philosophy of the art that you can incorporate into the core combinations to develop own personal style.

I also train privately in blade work and his style is a very slow, methodological system. Each week I leave with one or at the most two new physical techniques and at least one question or topic I am to research.

I have been places where it seemed as if an abundance of techniques were thrown at you and you just barely grasped them and then moved on. I did not care for that style.
 

hoshin1600

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Sure, and I wanted to learn rock electric guitar, so I would expect the lessons and exercises to support that. But he would just say, what do you want to do today? Well hell, I dunno, I'd like to play like David Gilmore, how do I go about that???
i always found my instructor to be amusing, he would ask 3 or 4 people what they wanted to work on that day. then he would completely ignore what anyone said and have us work on what ever it was he was going to do anyway.
 

Touch Of Death

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i always found my instructor to be amusing, he would ask 3 or 4 people what they wanted to work on that day. then he would completely ignore what anyone said and have us work on what ever it was he was going to do anyway.
We are the opposite. The students all have a list to check off; so, ignoring their requests would defy our whole system.
 

gpseymour

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i always found my instructor to be amusing, he would ask 3 or 4 people what they wanted to work on that day. then he would completely ignore what anyone said and have us work on what ever it was he was going to do anyway.
I have been guilty of that.
 

Tony Dismukes

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That is of course correct. But I think it raises an interesting question. How many "techniques" does a striking art have versus a grappling art?

Good question.

If was teaching someone to box. I would start them out with:
  • Basic stance
  • Basic advancing, retreating, and sidestepping footwork
  • Basic, jab, cross, and hook
  • Basic slipping, parrying, and blocking
In the space of a week I could give them enough material to keep them busy for the next six months.
Once they had a handle on the above, I'd show them a basic uppercut, overhand right, shoulder roll, bobbing and weaving, and start exploring some simple variations and combinations, feints and setups. That could keep them busy for a couple of years. After that, it's mostly a matter of delving deeper into the foundational material and exploring subtle variations rather than learning actual new techniques.

On the other hand, here's the material I would personally like to see a BJJ student have a handle on in order to be promoted to blue belt (the first belt above white - usually takes about 2 years to reach):


Note - I expect a student being promoted to blue belt to have encountered and be working on more items than are on the list below. This is just a list of what the student should know well enough to demonstrate cleanly.

Standup

Basic break falls
technical standup in base
distance management and clinching against untrained puncher
basic pummeling
basic arm drag
sprawl
duck under
basic defense against common untrained street attacks (haymaker, headlock, shove + punch, bear hug, etc)
at least two takedowns polished enough to be usable in sparring against experienced white belts

Guard bottom

Fundamentals of defending vs punches with closed and open guards
principles of distance management and controlling posture using guard (primarily closed guard and basic feet on hips open guard)
basics of disengaging and standing up from guard
basic arm bar, kimura, guillotine, cross-collar choke, and triangle performed with clean technique
familiarity with common fundamental sweeps (scissor sweep, hip bump, pendulum, butterfly, tripod, sickle, maybe more?) with at least two sweeps from closed guard and two from open guard being solid enough to regularly use during rolling

Guard top

Fundamentals of establishing and maintaining good posture and correct hand positioning
Understanding principles of breaking and passing guard
At least two guard passes solid enough to use regularly in rolling. Should be familiar with and working on polishing more
Straight foot lock

Mount bottom

Basic punch protection
safe hand positioning
solid trap and roll escape - basic variations
solid knee-elbow escape - basic variations
ability to use trap&roll and knee-elbow escapes in combination

Mount top

Principles of controlling mount and countering basic escapes, applied solidly
basic armlock, americana, cross-collar choke, and arm triangle with clean technique

Side mount bottom

Safe hand positioning
knee-elbow escape
escaping to all fours

Side mount top

Principles of controlling position from common side mount variations
basic transitions to other common top positions (mount, north-south, knee ride, kesa)
americana, kimura, arm lock, arm triangle, bread cutter choke

Back mount top

Principles of controlling position
transition to mount when opponent starts to escape
rear naked choke, at least one collar choke

Back mount bottom

basic principles of escape

Half-guard bottom

basic principles of defensive positioning
recovery to full guard
at least one solid sweep

Half-guard top

basic principles of control
at least one solid pass

In general

Solid movement for bridnging, shrimping, and turning over to all fours
Familiarity with fundamental concepts - posture control, distance control, frames, isolating limbs, using technique rather than strength, what different grips are useful for, etc
Good control - safe to work with - can be trusted to work with smaller beginners without hurting them
Has at least a basic gameplan for what to do in the common ground positions, both on top and bottom
Starting to use moves in combination rather than just individual techniques
Able to roll at a level generally expected of blue belts, i.e. able to dominate most white belts unless giving up a significant disadvantage in size or athleticism, able to start hanging in there with other blue belts, able to demonstrate clean technique rather than just athleticism


As you can see, BJJ has a lot more material that students need in order to have a solid foundation. (It doesn't stop there either. There are a lot more moves to learn after what I've listed here. This is just stuff you need to learn as a beginner (and continue refining through the higher ranks at the same time as you learn new material).
 

Tony Dismukes

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I think counting "techniques" between two arts is difficult.

It's much a matter of how you want to define the boundaries of a "technique".

Yeah, that's something I don't even know how to think about any more. The way some people count techniques, I know thousands of them. From another standpoint, I just know a few simple principles that I can apply in various ways depending on the situation.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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You need more than that one technique, obviously.
That one technique is the root of a tree. It will branch out.

CMA_tree.jpg
 

jobo

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Good question.

If was teaching someone to box. I would start them out with:
  • Basic stance
  • Basic advancing, retreating, and sidestepping footwork
  • Basic, jab, cross, and hook
  • Basic slipping, parrying, and blocking
In the space of a week I could give them enough material to keep them busy for the next six months.
Once they had a handle on the above, I'd show them a basic uppercut, overhand right, shoulder roll, bobbing and weaving, and start exploring some simple variations and combinations, feints and setups. That could keep them busy for a couple of years. After that, it's mostly a matter of delving deeper into the foundational material and exploring subtle variations rather than learning actual new techniques.

On the other hand, here's the material I would personally like to see a BJJ student have a handle on in order to be promoted to blue belt (the first belt above white - usually takes about 2 years to reach):


Note - I expect a student being promoted to blue belt to have encountered and be working on more items than are on the list below. This is just a list of what the student should know well enough to demonstrate cleanly.

Standup

Basic break falls
technical standup in base
distance management and clinching against untrained puncher
basic pummeling
basic arm drag
sprawl
duck under
basic defense against common untrained street attacks (haymaker, headlock, shove + punch, bear hug, etc)
at least two takedowns polished enough to be usable in sparring against experienced white belts

Guard bottom

Fundamentals of defending vs punches with closed and open guards
principles of distance management and controlling posture using guard (primarily closed guard and basic feet on hips open guard)
basics of disengaging and standing up from guard
basic arm bar, kimura, guillotine, cross-collar choke, and triangle performed with clean technique
familiarity with common fundamental sweeps (scissor sweep, hip bump, pendulum, butterfly, tripod, sickle, maybe more?) with at least two sweeps from closed guard and two from open guard being solid enough to regularly use during rolling

Guard top

Fundamentals of establishing and maintaining good posture and correct hand positioning
Understanding principles of breaking and passing guard
At least two guard passes solid enough to use regularly in rolling. Should be familiar with and working on polishing more
Straight foot lock

Mount bottom

Basic punch protection
safe hand positioning
solid trap and roll escape - basic variations
solid knee-elbow escape - basic variations
ability to use trap&roll and knee-elbow escapes in combination

Mount top

Principles of controlling mount and countering basic escapes, applied solidly
basic armlock, americana, cross-collar choke, and arm triangle with clean technique

Side mount bottom

Safe hand positioning
knee-elbow escape
escaping to all fours

Side mount top

Principles of controlling position from common side mount variations
basic transitions to other common top positions (mount, north-south, knee ride, kesa)
americana, kimura, arm lock, arm triangle, bread cutter choke

Back mount top

Principles of controlling position
transition to mount when opponent starts to escape
rear naked choke, at least one collar choke

Back mount bottom

basic principles of escape

Half-guard bottom

basic principles of defensive positioning
recovery to full guard
at least one solid sweep

Half-guard top

basic principles of control
at least one solid pass

In general

Solid movement for bridnging, shrimping, and turning over to all fours
Familiarity with fundamental concepts - posture control, distance control, frames, isolating limbs, using technique rather than strength, what different grips are useful for, etc
Good control - safe to work with - can be trusted to work with smaller beginners without hurting them
Has at least a basic gameplan for what to do in the common ground positions, both on top and bottom
Starting to use moves in combination rather than just individual techniques
Able to roll at a level generally expected of blue belts, i.e. able to dominate most white belts unless giving up a significant disadvantage in size or athleticism, able to start hanging in there with other blue belts, able to demonstrate clean technique rather than just athleticism


As you can see, BJJ has a lot more material that students need in order to have a solid foundation. (It doesn't stop there either. There are a lot more moves to learn after what I've listed here. This is just stuff you need to learn as a beginner (and continue refining through the higher ranks at the same time as you learn new material).
I see the bjj PR band waggon has rolled in to town. It's crawling about on the floor, its not that complicated. Or you could take the boxing moves and produce a similar over complicated breakdown if you had a mind.

I did plumbing at night school for something to do and they managed to turn soldering two pipes together in to five pages of learning objective in much the same way as you've turned a simple process into what ever that is above
 

Hyoho

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The tree analogy is fine but most will end up as leaves and fall off.
 

oftheherd1

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Yeah, that's something I don't even know how to think about any more. The way some people count techniques, I know thousands of them. From another standpoint, I just know a few simple principles that I can apply in various ways depending on the situation.

Yep, I suspect that is true of most arts.

Your post above the one I quoted is interesting as well. I wonder if grappling arts have more than say a striking art, like TKD. I suspect so but never progressed far enough in TKD to really know.
 

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