Tapi Tapi taught at 1988 Modern Arnis Camp

Happy Gypsy

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Hello Folks,

I came across this 16 minute video on YouTube and thought that some of you folks might be interested viewing it. I had heard from several people who I studied with in the early 2000s that the late Professor Presas actually taught Tapi Tapi to a select few students in the mid to late 1980s. This video seems to support that contention in a very dynamic manner.

Gitano
 

Rich Parsons

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Lamont,

In the late 90's GM Presas (Remy) rolled out techniques he had done before in a slightly new format.

What you see above by Tom Bolden was called Semi Sparring by most from the late 70's and 80's. You know start with a predefined set of techniques to create a drill and then insert some options and then let people move. Some got it and some had problems with it.

Tapi-Tapi was rolled out with high forehand with block and counter strike back with an attack and the original attacker blocks and counters with a back hand so both sides are addressed.

From this locks and strikes and other techniques are inserted where the players are now going in a semi pattern to no pattern depending upon the skill set and number of techniques known. No many low strikes if any (base drill) in the modern Tapi-Tapi.

This is the favorite mechanism of seven people with the title of Master of Tapi-Tapi for teaching. Many of those who started in 70's or 80's knew what the drill was, and those who learned it in the late 90's some acted like it was new and never seen before. Hence the comment about it being around before the 80's by the Original Poster.

Personally, it is a drill that can help people learn technique and if the instructor knows about body position and timing they can teach that as well to the student. This is true of either format the older or the newer. :D
 

Blindside

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Thanks Rich,
We have a similar counter for counter free flow drill in my PTK curriculum where the patterns and techniques move from fixed to free and from simple to advanced as the student progresses. To me it feels more like the organic growth pattern that I suspect the original art(s) were taught through rather than having Drill A,B,C; Form X,Y, Z; and subsystem 1,2,3 as it sometimes gets taught now.

But it would be weird to be called the Master of Drill X as a designation of accomplishment.
 

Mephisto

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Thanks Rich,
We have a similar counter for counter free flow drill in my PTK curriculum where the patterns and techniques move from fixed to free and from simple to advanced as the student progresses. To me it feels more like the organic growth pattern that I suspect the original art(s) were taught through rather than having Drill A,B,C; Form X,Y, Z; and subsystem 1,2,3 as it sometimes gets taught now.

But it would be weird to be called the Master of Drill X as a designation of accomplishment.
I thought the "Master of Tapi Tapi" title was wierd too originally, but when I learned that Tapi Tapi is basically Balintawak as interpreted by Remy Presas I was able to undertstand the meaning of the title a little better and it made more sense. Balintawak is definately a complete system on it's own, it's pretty simple on the surface much like boxing, but there's a world of difference between a beginner and advanced practitioner. I'd be curious to see how the Tapi Tapi masters compare to high level Balintawak guys, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of the Tapi Tapi masters have probably spent some time training Balintawak too. I know quite a few Modern Arnis guys dabble in Balintawak too (Buot lineage I believe), but I don't know about the Tapi Tapi masters specifically.

That being said the video does not appear to look much like Balintawak, it looks more like they are clearly putting different drills together. Where as Balintawak is more random in nature, perhaps this is just a basic version of tapi Tapi.
 

Rich Parsons

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I thought the "Master of Tapi Tapi" title was wierd too originally, but when I learned that Tapi Tapi is basically Balintawak as interpreted by Remy Presas I was able to undertstand the meaning of the title a little better and it made more sense. Balintawak is definately a complete system on it's own, it's pretty simple on the surface much like boxing, but there's a world of difference between a beginner and advanced practitioner. I'd be curious to see how the Tapi Tapi masters compare to high level Balintawak guys, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of the Tapi Tapi masters have probably spent some time training Balintawak too. I know quite a few Modern Arnis guys dabble in Balintawak too (Buot lineage I believe), but I don't know about the Tapi Tapi masters specifically.

That being said the video does not appear to look much like Balintawak, it looks more like they are clearly putting different drills together. Where as Balintawak is more random in nature, perhaps this is just a basic version of tapi Tapi.

Mephisto et al ,

1) My comments were in no way to be taken negatively to those with the Title of Master of Tapi-Tapi. As I have stated before, always go check out someone and make your own opinions upon their skill in teaching and application.

2) Masters of Tapi-Tapi : (* In Alphabetical Order *) Jeff Delaney; Chuck Gauss; Jim Ladis; Gaby Roloff; Randi Schea; Ken Smith; Brian Zawilinski
have had limited exposure to Balintawak fomr my understanding. Chuck Gauss has some exposure via GM Taboada , and Brian Zawilinski went recently to check out some Balintawak in NY area with Master Zack Taco.

(* Note: Jeff Delaney uses the Title GM, Chuck Gauss and Ken Smith have the Title GM via DIllman Karate International and use both Titles, Brian Zawilinski has a Title of GM for his TAWA and uses both titles. The lack of additional titles above was not and is not meant to be an insult. Just listing the those who have the Master of Tapi-Tapi within Modern Arnis *)

3) I am one of the heirs for the Buot Lineage of Balintawak and besides myself there are a few others who have trained in Modern Arnis as well the Buot Lineage of Balintawak. Datu (GM) Tim Hartman and Master Rocky Pasiwk.
 
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Mephisto

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Mephisto et al ,

1) My comments were in no way to be taken negatively to those with the Title of Master of Tapi-Tapi. As I have stated before, always go check out someone and make your own opinions upon their skill in teaching and application.

2) Masters of Tapi-Tapi : (* In Alphabetical Order *) Jeff Delaney; Chuck Gauss; Jim Ladis; Gaby Roloff; Randi Schea; Ken Smith; Brian Zawilinski
have had limited exposure to Balintawak fomr my understanding. Chuck Gauss has some exposure via GM Taboada , and Brian Zawilinski went recently to check out some Balintawak in NY area with Master Zack Taco.

(* Note: Jeff Delaney uses the Title GM, Chuck Gauss and Ken Smith have the Title GM via DIllman Karate International and use both Titles, Brian Zawilinski has a Title of GM for his TAWA and uses both titles. The lack of additional titles above was not and is not meant to be an insult. Just listing the those who have the Master of Tapi-Tapi within Modern Arnis *)

3) I am one of the heirs for the Buot Lineage of Balintawak and besides myself there are a few others who have trained in Modern Arnis as well the Buot Lineage of Balintawak. Datu (GM) Tim Hartman and Master Rocky Pasiwk.
I didn't think you were insinuating anything negative about Tapi Tapi, I wasn't addressing you. I was replying to blindside who like myself thought it was wierd that someone would be granted the title of "master" for a drill. As I said, I no longer think it's so wierd now that I understand that Tapi Tapi is more of a subsystem than a drill. I was trying to explain that to blindside.

Rich is it your experience that Tapi Tapi is the Balintawak influenced portion of Modern Arnis? Is there a good amount of crossover between the two systems? Or are they significantly different. One of the signatures of balintawak is the prevalence upstick block and counter, does Tapi tapi use a emphasize upstick as well?
 

Rich Parsons

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I am breaking your quote apart to answer the questions for better flow of question/statement to answer for myself.

I didn't think you were insinuating anything negative about Tapi Tapi, I wasn't addressing you. I was replying to blindside who like myself thought it was wierd that someone would be granted the title of "master" for a drill. As I said, I no longer think it's so wierd now that I understand that Tapi Tapi is more of a subsystem than a drill. I was trying to explain that to blindside.
I posted that as I do not want anyone to say I was implying that being a Master of Tapi-Tapi was just being a master of a drill. They have stated
it means more than that and I have no issues with calling them a Master of Tapi Tapi or accepting that they were told it was more or that they believe it is more than just a drill.

Rich is it your experience that Tapi Tapi is the Balintawak influenced portion of Modern Arnis?
Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: it depends upon your perspective. Are you a Balintawak Purist trying to make sure the methodology of the Founder GM Bacon are followed? And If so then some of the lineages of Balintawak would not be either. So some have argued that no.
You asked in my opinion. Yes there is some influence. How much is up to interpretation.

Is there a good amount of crossover between the two systems?
Yes and No.
The Numbering is modified from the Balintawak system. Could there have been another 12 counting system that influenced Modern Arnis? Yes, only I have not seen anyone make that claim.

Can the weight placement and blocking methodology work form Balintawak to Modern Arnis? yes.
Did everyone learn it that way? No
Does it matter if they learned away to make it work? Not really. It just means for that person or group there is less influence.

Or are they significantly different.

Yes, they are significantly different.
Balintawak originally was single stick and translation to empty hand and or blade was up to the practitioner. Well some of those practitioners have put it into their curriculum over time so there is some similarities and some differences.

Modern Arnis concentrates on self defense and has joint locks and throws as a major component of curriculum as well as blade and stick and double stick and stick and dagger.

Balintawak concentrated on inside stick dueling with some working empty hands and blade as well. yet still nor dueling aspect.

So yes they are different. Both stand alone.

One of the signatures of balintawak is the prevalence upstick block and counter, does Tapi tapi use a emphasize upstick as well?
I use it in my Modern Arnis, and learned it that way in Flint Michigan in the mid 80's. My instructors learned it that way in the Mid to late 70's. Other regional areas did not have it so much. Some did some did not. So I would say one of the differences is that if one learned Balintawak from GM Remy Presas they could use it within Modern Arnis and not be obvious. if you learned Balintawak outside and then brought it back the same could be true if one integrated it well.

Modern Arnis Semi Sparing and a Seguidas like counting drill(s) were rolled out in the 70's and 80's that could also be said to be Balintawak Influenced.

Clear(er) or Muddier?
 
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Mephisto

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I am breaking your quote apart to answer the questions for better flow of question/statement to answer for myself.


I posted that as I do not want anyone to say I was implying that being a Master of Tapi-Tapi was just being a master of a drill. They have stated
it means more than that and I have no issues with calling them a Master of Tapi Tapi or accepting that they were told it was more or that they believe it is more than just a drill.


Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: it depends upon your perspective. Are you a Balintawak Purist trying to make sure the methodology of the Founder GM Bacon are followed? And If so then some of the lineages of Balintawak would not be either. So some have argued that no.
You asked in my opinion. Yes there is some influence. How much is up to interpretation.


Yes and No.
The Numbering is modified from the Balintawak system. Could there have been another 12 counting system that influenced Modern Arnis? Yes, only I have not seen anyone make that claim.

Can the weight placement and blocking methodology work form Balintawak to Modern Arnis? yes.
Did everyone learn it that way? No
Does it matter if they learned away to make it work? Not really. It just means for that person or group there is less influence.



Yes, they are significantly different.
Balintawak originally was single stick and translation to empty hand and or blade was up to the practitioner. Well some of those practitioners have put it into their curriculum over time so there is some similarities and some differences.

Modern Arnis concentrates on self defense and has joint locks and throws as a major component of curriculum as well as blade and stick and double stick and stick and dagger.

Balintawak concentrated on inside stick dueling with some working empty hands and blade as well. yet still nor dueling aspect.

So yes they are different. Both stand alone.


I use it in my Modern Arnis, and learned it that way in Flint Michigan in the mid 80's. My instructors learned it that way in the Mid to late 70's. Other regional areas did not have it so much. Some did some did not. So I would say one of the differences is that if one learned Balintawak from GM Remy Presas they could use it within Modern Arnis and not be obvious. if you learned Balintawak outside and then brought it back the same could be true if one integrated it well.

Modern Arnis Semi Sparing and a Seguidas like counting drill(s) were rolled out in the 70's and 80's that could also be said to be Balintawak Influenced.

Clear(er) or Muddier?
That helps
 

Datu Tim Hartman

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Tapi Tapi as it's being taught today is not related to Balintawak. it is a drill that is based off a single stick version of single sinawali. professor did teach Balintawak concepts back in the mid eighties which a small handful of us where taught. I could get into it in more detail unfortunately I'm hopping on a plane shortly to teach in Florida.
 
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Happy Gypsy

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Thanks everyone for the info and insights provided.

Gitano
 

Mephisto

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Tapi Tapi as it's being taught today is not related to Balintawak. it is a drill that is based off a single stick version of single sinawali. professor did teach Balintawak concepts back in the mid eighties which a small handful of us where taught. I could get into it in more detail unfortunately I'm hopping on a plane shortly to teach in Florida.
Chime in some more if you get the chance. I'm interested in the modern Arnis-balintawak link, in the US. I know Remy trained with Maranga in PI but I'm curious how much balintawak is incorporated into Modern Arnis.
 

Rich Parsons

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Chime in some more if you get the chance. I'm interested in the modern Arnis-balintawak link, in the US. I know Remy trained with Maranga in PI but I'm curious how much balintawak is incorporated into Modern Arnis.

GM Remy Presas began is Balintawak Training with GM Moncol and then with GM Maranga and then GM Bacon.
As to the amount, that depends upon ones insight and understanding of both systems. :)
 
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Happy Gypsy

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"GM Remy Presas began is Balintawak Training with GM Moncol and then with GM Maranga and then GM Bacon.
As to the amount, that depends upon ones insight and understanding of both systems. :)"

Hello Master Parsons, I don't fully understand your comment quoted above. The amount of Balintawak that is found in Modern Arnis is dependent on one's insights and understanding of each system?

That is confusing to me because something is either incorporated into Modern Arnis from Balintawak or it isn't. If something came from Balintawak it should be identifiable even if it is not used by all Modern Arnis instructors at the present time.

In addition some of the Balintawak inclusions should be identifiable in terms of the individual instructors, Moncol, Marranga and Bacon since they were individuals and no two instructors are identical even within the same martial arts system.

Gitano
 

Rich Parsons

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"GM Remy Presas began is Balintawak Training with GM Moncol and then with GM Maranga and then GM Bacon.
As to the amount, that depends upon ones insight and understanding of both systems. :)"

Hello Master Parsons, I don't fully understand your comment quoted above. The amount of Balintawak that is found in Modern Arnis is dependent on one's insights and understanding of each system?

That is confusing to me because something is either incorporated into Modern Arnis from Balintawak or it isn't. If something came from Balintawak it should be identifiable even if it is not used by all Modern Arnis instructors at the present time.

In addition some of the Balintawak inclusions should be identifiable in terms of the individual instructors, Moncol, Marranga and Bacon since they were individuals and no two instructors are identical even within the same martial arts system.

Gitano

Gitano,

There are 12 angles of attack in both. this could be the a Balintawak influence as they are the same angles, only in different order.
Some people see the different order and think they are different and therefore a Number 3 in Modern Arnis being a Number 4 Balintawak makes them totally different. The names or numbers are different yet some people have informed me that they are different and therefore not from Balintawak.

The Hammer Block the Remy did is from Balintawak, so that is the same, yet Remy also taught a Block with a brace which is not in Balintawak so the blocks are different (* Quoting someone else *) "SEE , Can't you see that they are different!"
Yet, some take the Block with a brace and implement it with a push which is valid when both hands are on the stick and then they execute without a brace the same way with a block and then this becomes who they learn to block. So it is different, yet it could be the same.
Now look at some lineages of Balintawak that also execute more of a push block than a down punyo strike which puts the stick straight up and into a nice block position.

So this gets into the variation over time from instructor to instructor and lineage to lineage.

Yes, GM Bacon did not have many names. GM Buot did some naming, and the Cebuano names I have from his lineage are form when he was in the PI, and the English names are from when he moved to the USA.

GM Moncol was left handed and this assisted GM Remy a lot in his learning. GMs Maranga and Moncol both liked punyo and did Remy.

Just Like, Some lineages within Balintawak added in the Groups and grouping methodology. Others have added in some sinawalis, abanikos and knife work into the curriculum. Where as GM bacon left it up to the student to translate themselves or to ask questions for a translation.

So, some people will see the differences and claim they are different and not influenced. So, while I could say certain things are from Balintawak, others might not see it that way. I could say that no while those are similar they were developed independantly and some might fight me to the death to prove me wrong because they believe it to be an influence.

Then some will just disagree to just disagree. :)

Have I helped to clarify?
 
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Happy Gypsy

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Ok, I understand the points that you are trying to make. It's all about perspective, background, knowledge, experience and training,
Makes more sense now. It even applies to whether or not someone might have trained with Professor or not. I've only seen DVDs
and read his book. Thanks for the help.
 

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So for those of us who don't know what Tapi-Tapi is, it is a free flow counter for counter drill?

Blindside and everyone else on this thread.

Last year I started a thread on the Tapi Tapi and Balinktawak Grouping/Un Grouped method of learning in the Balintawak forum which described the drills and methods of teaching. Rich and I discussed the drills and the influence or non influence from Balintawak to Modern Arnis in a little greater detail. Here is the link.
Grouping Drills MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

I remembering hearing at Modern Arnis camps (95-2000) back when Remy was alive that the Tapi Tapi was Remy's answer to Balinktawak as a way to sort of explain the drill. When I saw GM Toboada in 99 I came away thinking there was some influence from Balinktawak (or a connection there) between the grouping drills and the Tapi drills and that reinforced what I had heard. BUT I've heard from several senior instructors that is not the case.

However it could be that GM Remy took what he learned from Balinktawak and over time modified it and added it to his system. But over time what those might be, to serious Balinktawak practitioners could be unrecognizable since it is so diluted and taken out of context as it has been passed down to us for several reasons.

1) What was stressed in private or shown to the select few during the 70's-80's might be taught in demo mode at seminars during the 90's and we were left to copy a glimpse of what was shown without the correction or the hands on training that the private student got in the earlier times.
2) The drills might have been adapted to fit different needs or goals. Like for instance a Balintawak based drill that I learned from a JKD instructor, who's also a Pekiti Tirsa instructor, and due to his personal preference treats the stick as if it is a blade. That is going to change the way the drill is practiced and the way techniques are done.
3) The teachers main goal for using the drill. Is it for self defense like Modern Arnis is, or Stick dueling like Balinktawak, or an edged weapon system like Pekiti and so on? All will interpret things differently and have more emphasis on what is shown or what is left out.

Even looking at the video what GM Bolden was showing in 1988 was very different than what I learned in 95 and onward. It has elements to the Tapi drills, but how we practiced Tapi from the mid 90's looked more in common with Balintawak's grouping drills than that video.

To me it is still hard to not see a similarity between the two types of drills in Modern Arnis and Balintawak (I'm referring to the Tapi and the student driver drills of Balintawak), the 12 angles of attack, some of the teaching methods, some of the techniques etc. etc. I mean I see more of a connection that say Modern Anris and Serrada, Lapunti, Bahalana, etc. etc. (Just naming styles here.)
 
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