Tang Soo Do and the Chinese connection

[Shinzu]

master frank. hello. i am associated with the international tang soo do moo duk kwan association in PA. grandmaster pak was just up for our annual tournament. my instructor is master kovaleski.

it's nice to see the same association brothers who share the same love for TSD. my rank is E Dan.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Frank:

Most certainly I would bow to anyone whose skill levels include the ability to peer into my heart and identify "condescending" (spec: "patronizing") in my contribution to Robert. Now in fairness, I noticed that you did not guide Robert regarding the wealth of information I gave him, nor the step-by-step instructions for proceeding with his research. I suppose I might have been remiss in not taking each and every Boxing method incorporated by Gen Qi in his chapter on Boxing chapter (1 through 29), but frankly I have reservations about getting to close to someone who abreacts to being addressed by his first name without first giving his permission. :idunno: You know what you can do, though Frank. You can go check with Julian. I am quite sure that as a ranking person of standing in the MA community he should be able to provide doting guidance to you regarding the relationships among the Chinese and Korean traditions. Afterall, why bother with someone who is only a mere 4th dan in YMK Hapkido and took 4 years to correlate the material I shared with Robert when you can go straight to a guy who holds standing in two organizations and may have the ear of Korean nationals who undoubtedly know much more than I. Of course, these are just suggestions. You have no reason to hear them as constructive suggestions and I have every reason to believe that you will find SOME way of hearing them as toxic responses rather than the suggestions in which they were meant. Too bad really.

Oh, and here is another freebie. As you folks are discussing the kicking material across the Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese traditions you may want to go very lightly on the idea of a spin kick and roundhouse kick (mawashi geri). There is no provenence for either of these techniques other than in post-WW II generation of MA (excepting Wu Shu) until one examines Chang Chuan with its low forward and reverse sweeping kick. In like manner the high heel hook kicks and head high side kicks are all modern innovations founded in civil (IE. Taek Kyon) rather than martial arts (IE. Su Bahk). If one is to be guided by the material found in traditional Okinawan kata or the spirit boxing of Southern China one must agree that such techniques are no where to be found and arguably can only be attributed to later modifications of the forms. FWIW.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

"....Itosu was instrumental in developing and modifying Okinawan material and is generally identified as the originator of the last three Pinan Kata (the first 2 are often ascribed to his teacher, Kyan, Chotoku)..."

Quite right. My Bad (See: Sells pg 51). Should have been "Matsumura" not "Kyan"). Thanks.

Regards,

 

[RRouuselot]

Dear Frank:

Oh, and here is another freebie. As you folks are discussing the kicking material across the Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese traditions you may want to go very lightly on the idea of a spin kick and roundhouse kick (mawashi geri). There is no provenence for either of these techniques other than in post-WW II generation of MA (excepting Wu Shu) until one examines Chang Chuan with its low forward and reverse sweeping kick. In like manner the high heel hook kicks and head high side kicks are all modern innovations founded in civil (IE. Taek Kyon) rather than martial arts (IE. Su Bahk). If one is to be guided by the material found in traditional Okinawan kata or the spirit boxing of Southern China one must agree that such techniques are no where to be found and arguably can only be attributed to later modifications of the forms. FWIW.

Regards,

Bruce

Here is another freebie........some of the "modern" kicks, roundhouse for example, were brought from Thailand and introduced into Japanese Karate during its pre/post WWII.

 

[dosandojang]

Where is the Chinese connection? The Yang style Hwang Kee learned while in Manchuria (and other parts of China), his view of the MYDBTJ...Ondrej, care to continue?

 

[dosandojang]

Just out of curiosity what do people reading this thread think about someone learning from a book and then testing/giving ranks? Is this the only place he learned Okinawan forms from?

I for one find it rather odd……..anyone else think so?

Even though I LOVE TSD, I have ALWAYS had a problem with this (Hwang Kee NEVER earned a Black Belt in ANY style!)!

 

[RRouuselot]

Where is the Chinese connection? The Yang style Hwang Kee learned while in Manchuria (and other parts of China), his view of the MYDBTJ...Ondrej, care to continue?

Sorry I don't know what MYDBTJ stands for.....

Also, what from the Yang style did he teach or add to TSD?

 

[Shinzu]

Just out of curiosity what do people reading this thread think about someone learning from a book and then testing/giving ranks? Is this the only place he learned Okinawan forms from?

I for one find it rather odd……..anyone else think so?

Even though I LOVE TSD, I have ALWAYS had a problem with this (Hwang Kee NEVER earned a Black Belt in ANY style!)!

hard to say. you don't have to earn a black belt in order to become proficient in a particular style. do i believe he was qualified to test? yes i do. do i think he learned all from books? no i don't. someone would have needed to instruct him.

it's a hard question to answer but one thing is for certain. he is the reason that TSD is being taught today, and for that we should be thankful.

 

[dosandojang]

The Moo Yee Do Bo Tong Ji (The new nation was called Koryo, from which the modern name Korea has been derived. In the subsequent Yi dynasty, King Jung-Jo ordered Duk-Moo-Yi to write a book of martial arts techniques. This book is known as the "Moo-Ye-Do-Bo-Tong-Ji". Gradually, with the influence of Confucianism the practise of martial arts in Korea declined. The impact of this development was increased when the Japanese invaded Korea in 1910 and banned the practise of all martial arts.). And he studied Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan while in China....

 

[glad2bhere]

Just some odd bits:

1.) The hyung executed by Mr. Pak in the video does use the typical preparatory movements consistent with Tiger style boxing such as "lad worshipping Buddha" Qi Gong which are also recorded by Steve DeMasco in his tape BLACK TIGER FORM. Where things breakdown is the introduction of the exotic kicking material to what would otherwise be a hand-oriented form.

2.) Regarding the idea of learning/teaching from books, I am afraid that if we teased out all of the teachers of MA who do this, albeit on the "QT", there would not be very many teachers left. I don't know of anyone who doesn't use books, tapes, DVD and magazine articles to suppliment their teaching. There is even the supposed tradition of confusing or obfuscating material in old texts and manuals to keep it from being stolen and used by competitors in the MA field. Its probably one of the more ingrained hypocrisies in the KMA that we tell everyone that MA can't be learned from a book and then turn around and learn and teach from books. For myself I use a rather large personal library to continue to delve deeper into the various influences that shaped the style of Hapkido that I practice. I don't teach from it but do use it to shed additional light on how what is done in the Yon Mu Kwan might be made more efficient or effective. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Josh Oakley]

Just out of curiosity what do people reading this thread think about someone learning from a book and then testing/giving ranks? Is this the only place he learned Okinawan forms from?

I for one find it rather odd……..anyone else think so?

Even though I LOVE TSD, I have ALWAYS had a problem with this (Hwang Kee NEVER earned a Black Belt in ANY style!)!

If there's one thing I've learned In martial arts, it is that belt does not matter, at least in terms of knowledge. And, considering the long history of Martial arts in general, it's also a relatively new phenomenon (I haven't heard of any belt references older than Jigoro Kano).

Why care if Hwang Kee never had a black belt? The belt system is a man made system, and in reality has more to do with authority than it does with knowledge, even in its original two-belt form.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

This thread started out well written, but got out of hand mid way through…

As a senior ranking master instructor in Tang Soo Do and an extensive history in a number of Okinawan and Japanese systems over the past 34 years, as well as being fortunate to have as MY direct instructor, Grandmaster C.I. Kim (MDK Pin #475) I have seen enough, and been taught enough to know that in the early part of Hwan Kee’s teaching history he focused greatly on Chinese hyung. Not everything that was taught in Korea was taught later as the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan fed came into existence.

The hyung that Hwang chose to incorporate into Tang Soo Do are ALL from Okinawa, and the early attempts to hide that fact hurt Hwang Kee and his organization immensely.

In discussing the changes that were made to the hyung from the original version are to extensive to list here, but unique interpretations have been introduced by every KJN from each organization along the way. To say that any Tang Soo Do, Shotokan, Shudokan, S h i t o-Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, etc. organization is still passing down the “ORIGINAL” version of these hyung/kata is wrongful.

We want to show a “connection” between the Tang Soo Do that Hwang Kee pass down to us and China… this will not happen through the examination of the original hyung used to incorporate the system.

If you ever had a chance to train with KJN Hwang Kee, and you were able to feel his energy as he worked with you, what you would have felt was clearly a Chinese influence in his every move. I am not discussing the “Technique”; I am discussing the “Man”, and his “Presence”.

I have the honor and privilege of having Master Henry Murphy in my “up-line” under Grandmaster C.I. Kim. While in Korea, Master Murphy spent a great deal of time training with KJN Hwang Kee. It was at that time that KJN Hwang Kee was teaching the Chinese hyung in his main dojang and Master Murphy learned a complete series of eight hyung, including “So Rim Jang Kwon”.

Master Murphy came close to leaving us earlier this past year, and decided that his time here is finished he wants to pass these hyung on to those who are interested in carrying them on for generations to come. We are in the process of setting up seminar dates around the country to teach these hyung. We have contacted KJN Charles Ferraro to get things started. KJN Ferraro has established, through the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, what we feel is the kind of association that KJN Hwang Kee would have wanted to see come from his followers.

If you want to see the Chinese influence that KJN Hwang Kee used to establish his teaching, this would be a good starting place.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!

 

[Makalakumu]

I have the honor and privilege of having Master Henry Murphy in my “up-line” under Grandmaster C.I. Kim. While in Korea, Master Murphy spent a great deal of time training with KJN Hwang Kee. It was at that time that KJN Hwang Kee was teaching the Chinese hyung in his main dojang and Master Murphy learned a complete series of eight hyung, including “So Rim Jang Kwon”.

Master Murphy came close to leaving us earlier this past year, and decided that his time here is finished he wants to pass these hyung on to those who are interested in carrying them on for generations to come. We are in the process of setting up seminar dates around the country to teach these hyung. We have contacted KJN Charles Ferraro to get things started. KJN Ferraro has established, through the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan, what we feel is the kind of association that KJN Hwang Kee would have wanted to see come from his followers.

Master Penfil

How do the So Rim Jang Kwan hyungs compare to the versions of the Okinawan hyungs we practice. Would you say that they are more clear and concise in presented the information they contain. I ask this, because, gradually, as I have become more aware of the information in hyung, I have come to understand that "knowing" too many hyung may not be beneficial. If these hyung are truly the root of Hwang Kee's system, perhaps they should take precedence.

upnorthyosa

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Master Penfil

How do the So Rim Jang Kwan hyungs compare to the versions of the Okinawan hyungs we practice.

Also, master Penfil, does the hanja ideograms for So Rim Jang Kwan corresponds with "Shaolin Chang Quan" in Chinese?

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

does the hanja ideograms for So Rim Jang Kwan corresponds with "Shaolin Chang Quan"

That is correct.

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

thank you for the info. Is there any small videoclipfile floating around the web which shows some of those chinese-influenced Tang Soo Do hyungs? The ones I saw are mostly the Okinawan-derived ones.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

As of this time, I have not yet had the opportunity to see these hyung. I am excited, and looking forward to taking part in these seminars and learning these hyungs.

As Mr. Kendrowski mentioned in his response; learning too many hyung can be a bad thing. I spoke in great detain with Master Murphy about the importance of hyung in our training, and the reason for choosing to ad a hyung or a series of hyung to ones training regiment when we first became involved with each other this past year. We are both on the same page on this issue.

Most practitioners that I meet and train with have a very superficial understanding of hyung. So many organizations have established their curriculum on learning a specific hyung or two per rank, and that means that they memorize the movements in their sequential order, do it repetitiously so they can perform it and look good at it, but never truly develop an understanding of the deeper aspects of the hyung or in many cases, the proper transitioning from technique to technique.

If we are simply learning a series of techniques to simply acquire more rank, we are fooling ourselves. When adding a new hyung to our curriculum we have to ask ourselves;

1) What NEW principles will this hyung introduce to our training to make us better?

2) What new techniques are being introduced in this hyung?

3) If the concepts, principles and general techniques in this hyung have already been introduced to us in other hyung that we are teaching, what value does this NEW hyung bring to the table that makes it worth introducing?

I will not waste my time, or the time of my students, introducing new hyung if the answers to these questions determine that we already have these bases covered.

Master Murphy has a very deep level of understanding for all of the hyung that he teaches, and through our conversations he has helped me to determine that the addition of these hyung will prove to enhance out training and bring us a deeper understanding of our Tang Soo Do, and Hwang Kee’s original vision that helped him to form his Do (“WAY”).

Once I have been able to work directly with Master Murphy I will be in a better position to answer questions on this subject…

If you have a school and would be interested in discussing the possibility of establishing your school as one of our host locations, please contact me at your convenience.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!

 

[Rocky]

Wow its amazing to see how things change and how many interpritations to TSD there are now, I started in 1972 at 6yrs old. At that time there were very few in the U.S doing TSD in fact Master Dale Drouilard was the first person to bring TSD to Michigan and I beleive the U.S, we had very few belts, No kiddy blackbelts ( Midnight Blue ) .

I now see umteen different groups doing their version, the one thing that I noticed that is way off from what we practiced is the wearing of a BLACK belt, that was a big no no in my day, it was a Midnight blue belt....Things have sure changed!


Rocky

 

[Shrewsbury]

I would like to poke my nose in here, and so you know I have a rather large nose.


First I would like to state I am not a TSD stylist. as a child I studied with my father who trained with Lynn jackson in Tang Soo Do, in Lorain, then Elyria Ohio, he began with mr jackson around 72, i still remember helping dye his belt after his promotion., and then watching him sew material onto his belt for the next rank.

I have read a decent amount and heard a decent amount of things about the founder and style most commonly called today, Tang Soo Do.

I certainly feel at some point there was a need or reason for the use of Tang, which referrs to the Tang Dynasty of china roughly beggining in 600 ad and ending in 900 ad, many great warriors and arts came from this time in china's history.

I do have a biased opinion of the founder studying Yang tai Chi to any decent level. As a CMA's I have seen the ways these arts are taught and the unfortunate pregudice of the Chinese teachers. The arts are taught three ways and only the first is known by the vast magority, this is what is reffered to as the public arts, and this is what just about everyone does or knows, only a select few ever make it to the Closed Door teachings, this is reserved for the top students who have dedicated themselves to their teacher and the art, the third way is the family style, don't confuse this with the term "gar" or the use of it today. this way is reserved only for family members and top disciples, and there are only a very, very small amount of people who learn this method.

for me to be told a foriegner trained for a small amount of time in tai chi and was good enough to teach it is very hard for me to beleive, even if he studied for 2 years (which I here more often it being 6 months) and 8 hours a day, he still would have only been learning the basics and intermediate aspects of the public form, we are not talking hun gar, wing chun or the like, which you could get sufficient at with that amount of time, but tai chi, i just find it real hard to beleive.

agian just my opinion.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Jay,
You are absolutely correct in what you have stated here…

Hwang Kee, at the time that he started teaching was most likely not at a level that one should be as a teacher. Much like the new school owners of today, he was just cutting his teeth on the arts at that time. What he did was build his house with hundreds and thousands of students over his history.

As stated, I did have the opportunity to train with him (briefly). In the time I spent with him I was able to see and understand why so many “thousands” of Tang Soo Do practitioners feel as strongly about him as they do…

He was an awesome individual, and a great teacher…


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!