T
TangSooGuy
Guest
I told myself I'd never get involved in this debate, but Oh well, I feel a need to share what i have learned, even if it comes back to burn me.
Disclaimer: Before anyone flames me for posting this information, please don't think I accept this as the one and only truth. There is probably as much evidence for contardicting theories, ideas and viewpoints. This is only what I have come to believe through my own research.
1. Tang Soo Do: Tang refers to Tang Dynasty of China, and refers to the cultural and philosphical influence of China on this Korean martial art. Soo means hand, but implies fist, punch, etc. Do means way of life. Literally: The way of the China Hand. It can be argued that 'Tang' as a different character can mean open or empty, just as 'kara' in karate can have two meanings. My personal belief is that this is open to interpretation, but the 'Open/Empty' interpretation of 'Tang' seems to be more ploitically than historically motivated.
2. The Pinan/ Pyung Ahn forms. For a long time, TSD practitioners maintained that Hwang Kee learned these forms while visiting China. This has puzzled many people, since these forms are Okinawan, created by Itosu (Idos). Those who point this out claim that since these forms are not Chinese, TSD has no Chinese connection. In my opinion. this is a rather narrow-minded point of view, but more on that later.
The fact remains that the Pyung Ahn (Pinan) forms as practiced today are not Chinese. I do not dispute this. They were created by Itosu, an Okinawan. The question many do not ask though, is what they were created from. Most tracing of this goes back to two forms- Jae Nam, and Kong Sang Koon/ Kusanku (both of Chinese origin).
Where then was Itosu exposed to these forms? His own teacher is accepted to be Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura. It is generally accepted that Matsumura was taught by Kong Sang Koon inwhile Kong Sang Koon served as military attache to Okinawa. Many propose that Kong Sang Koon may have taught the form Jae Nam to Matsumura, who in turn passed it along to Itosu. Others propose that it was actually another Chinese master who taught Jae Nam to Itosu directly, while the Kong Sang Koon form was taught to Matsumura who passed in on to Itosu. Whatever the origins, it is commonly accepted (at least in TSD circles) that the Pyung Ahn forms were created using Jae Nam and possibly Kong Sang Koon as their beginnings. Now to say that forms created using two Chinese forms as their starting point do not have a chinese influence does not make sense to me. Therefore, if the Pyung Ahn forms are Chinese influenced, Tang Soo Do is Chinese influenced.
3. The Pyung Ahn/ Bassai/ Kong Sang Koon connection. For the purposes of this post, when I refer to Bassai, I refer to the Greater Bassai, or Bassi Dai. There are many who argue as to the origins of this form as well. Since we cannot attach one creator to this form, it is hard to say, but my research has led me to the belief that the Bassi forms were created from the Form Pal Che, which goes back to 16th century Southern China, quite possibly to the Shaolin Temple Kwon Bop System.
You can further see evidence of this in the similarites between Kong Sang Koon and Bassai, which share some of the same movements. Bassai shares some of the same movements with some of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs, and many of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs incorporate movements found in Kong Sang Koon. The one real binding and unifying thread I have found in these three forms is China, once again indicating a Chinese influence to Tang Soo Do, even if the forms themselves came to TSD through Okinawa, which again I do not dispute.
4. Other forms practiced in TSD. To limit TSD's Chinese connections to only the forms above is a mistake. Forms like Ro hai (Lohai), Jindo (Chinto) and others are also practiced. While once again the origins of these forms are debated endlessly, I know I have personally seen footage of Chinese paractitioners (including shaolin monks and wushu practitioners) practicing forms with unmistakable similarities to Jindo, Ro hai, and Bassai. I have been told on numerous occasions that the most advanced form taught in TSD is the Tai Chi form.
Once again there is evidence for a Chinese influence.
5. Philosophy. Much of Korean and TSd philosophy can be traced to Confucianism and Taoism, and specifically the Tao te Ching and the I Ching, all of which are Chinese in origin. The belief in Um Yang (Yin and Yang) is central to TSD philosophy, and much of this philosophy can be traced to Lao Tze (Li Er), a Chinese philosopher. Again, there is Chinese influence.
All I am trying to point out is that the people who say there is no foundation for belief that the practice of TSD is in any way influenced by Chinese martial arts are incorrect. However I would equally like to say that those practitioners of TSD maintain that there is no influence of Okinawan martial art in TSD are equally incorrect.
Any research I have conducted shows me that much of what we know as true martial art today can trace its path back to China.
There is a natural cycle of cultural interchange from China to Okinawa to Korea in the South, and from China to Korea in the north.
I hope that this has been in some way helpful. It is not my wish to debate endlessly whether China has a place in TSD. It is my belief that it does. Feel free to present other viewpoints, as I am willing to read and take in any information. I am merely stating what my own research into this has shown me, while I am sure that others have uncovered evidence for other points of view.
The problem is that martial arts have always been political, and history has always been revisionist, so getting down to "the" truth is a difficult if not impossible task.
Disclaimer: Before anyone flames me for posting this information, please don't think I accept this as the one and only truth. There is probably as much evidence for contardicting theories, ideas and viewpoints. This is only what I have come to believe through my own research.
1. Tang Soo Do: Tang refers to Tang Dynasty of China, and refers to the cultural and philosphical influence of China on this Korean martial art. Soo means hand, but implies fist, punch, etc. Do means way of life. Literally: The way of the China Hand. It can be argued that 'Tang' as a different character can mean open or empty, just as 'kara' in karate can have two meanings. My personal belief is that this is open to interpretation, but the 'Open/Empty' interpretation of 'Tang' seems to be more ploitically than historically motivated.
2. The Pinan/ Pyung Ahn forms. For a long time, TSD practitioners maintained that Hwang Kee learned these forms while visiting China. This has puzzled many people, since these forms are Okinawan, created by Itosu (Idos). Those who point this out claim that since these forms are not Chinese, TSD has no Chinese connection. In my opinion. this is a rather narrow-minded point of view, but more on that later.
The fact remains that the Pyung Ahn (Pinan) forms as practiced today are not Chinese. I do not dispute this. They were created by Itosu, an Okinawan. The question many do not ask though, is what they were created from. Most tracing of this goes back to two forms- Jae Nam, and Kong Sang Koon/ Kusanku (both of Chinese origin).
Where then was Itosu exposed to these forms? His own teacher is accepted to be Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura. It is generally accepted that Matsumura was taught by Kong Sang Koon inwhile Kong Sang Koon served as military attache to Okinawa. Many propose that Kong Sang Koon may have taught the form Jae Nam to Matsumura, who in turn passed it along to Itosu. Others propose that it was actually another Chinese master who taught Jae Nam to Itosu directly, while the Kong Sang Koon form was taught to Matsumura who passed in on to Itosu. Whatever the origins, it is commonly accepted (at least in TSD circles) that the Pyung Ahn forms were created using Jae Nam and possibly Kong Sang Koon as their beginnings. Now to say that forms created using two Chinese forms as their starting point do not have a chinese influence does not make sense to me. Therefore, if the Pyung Ahn forms are Chinese influenced, Tang Soo Do is Chinese influenced.
3. The Pyung Ahn/ Bassai/ Kong Sang Koon connection. For the purposes of this post, when I refer to Bassai, I refer to the Greater Bassai, or Bassi Dai. There are many who argue as to the origins of this form as well. Since we cannot attach one creator to this form, it is hard to say, but my research has led me to the belief that the Bassi forms were created from the Form Pal Che, which goes back to 16th century Southern China, quite possibly to the Shaolin Temple Kwon Bop System.
You can further see evidence of this in the similarites between Kong Sang Koon and Bassai, which share some of the same movements. Bassai shares some of the same movements with some of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs, and many of the Pyung Ahn Hyungs incorporate movements found in Kong Sang Koon. The one real binding and unifying thread I have found in these three forms is China, once again indicating a Chinese influence to Tang Soo Do, even if the forms themselves came to TSD through Okinawa, which again I do not dispute.
4. Other forms practiced in TSD. To limit TSD's Chinese connections to only the forms above is a mistake. Forms like Ro hai (Lohai), Jindo (Chinto) and others are also practiced. While once again the origins of these forms are debated endlessly, I know I have personally seen footage of Chinese paractitioners (including shaolin monks and wushu practitioners) practicing forms with unmistakable similarities to Jindo, Ro hai, and Bassai. I have been told on numerous occasions that the most advanced form taught in TSD is the Tai Chi form.
Once again there is evidence for a Chinese influence.
5. Philosophy. Much of Korean and TSd philosophy can be traced to Confucianism and Taoism, and specifically the Tao te Ching and the I Ching, all of which are Chinese in origin. The belief in Um Yang (Yin and Yang) is central to TSD philosophy, and much of this philosophy can be traced to Lao Tze (Li Er), a Chinese philosopher. Again, there is Chinese influence.
All I am trying to point out is that the people who say there is no foundation for belief that the practice of TSD is in any way influenced by Chinese martial arts are incorrect. However I would equally like to say that those practitioners of TSD maintain that there is no influence of Okinawan martial art in TSD are equally incorrect.
Any research I have conducted shows me that much of what we know as true martial art today can trace its path back to China.
There is a natural cycle of cultural interchange from China to Okinawa to Korea in the South, and from China to Korea in the north.
I hope that this has been in some way helpful. It is not my wish to debate endlessly whether China has a place in TSD. It is my belief that it does. Feel free to present other viewpoints, as I am willing to read and take in any information. I am merely stating what my own research into this has shown me, while I am sure that others have uncovered evidence for other points of view.
The problem is that martial arts have always been political, and history has always been revisionist, so getting down to "the" truth is a difficult if not impossible task.