Tai Chi vs. MMA from Daoist Gate - Blog Post

[Flying Crane]

So you have two groups of 5 martial arts students, all you know is that one is a group taken from a boxing gym and one is a group taken from a kung fu school. They are going to do some stand up fighting under san shou rules. Best of five gives the group the win. Which group would you bet on to win?

I would not bet on any of them. Most likely, they all suck.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The failings of some guy is only an example to you of how to not do it, and there are always variables. Beyond that, it means nothing.

The success of some guy is only an example of how it might be done, and there are always variables. Beyond that, it means nothing.

How YOU do it will determine if you fail or succeed. And yes, you guessed it, there are always variables. Take the lessons where they may be found. And then do YOURS.

Beyond that, it means nothing.

Really, I mean that. It means nothing.

Understood, and I agree, but this is just one straw that has been added to all the others that have been building up as it applies to 25 years of Taijiquan and how things have changed in that time as well as how the practitioners have change over that same period.

about 20 years ago, I was once in a class that was doing the taiji two person form. Basically it is a drill that switches back and forth between attacker and defender. It is also choreographed so it is not reality as it applies to a fight, but it is not meant to be, it is a drill, that is all. However it does require you do the forms properly. I was training with a gentleman who was very hung up in the mythology of taijiquan, but his form was rather sloppy. We went back and forth for a while and then I stopped him. I told him that if he continued doing the forms the way he was doing that it would not train him correctly as to how to respond to attack. He needed to complete each movement, not just do the thing half way. His angry response to me was "I don't DO martial arts...I DO TAI CHI" This was the first time I ran into this attitude. He was convinced that by simply going through the motions that somehow, magically, he would be indestructible and that his "Internal Tai Chi Chuan" was so far superior to any other art that it was beneath him to even think about anything he deemed "Marital Arts". I have run into this many times since. After that I started running into the Tai is not a martial art crowd, it is simply moving meditation. And I had no problem with that group if that is what they wanted. However, over time, that changed to anger when it was even mentioned that Taijiquan was a martial art. Had a woman storm out of my class, and never return, once when another student asked me about the marital arts of it.

Here is the thing, Xu beat up another deluded Taijiquan guy, that is all, nothing more. But the over all attitude about and view of taiji has changed drastically over the last 25 years and I am simply tired of dealing with it as well as trying to get the point across that it is ok if all you want is forms, but it is a martial art. More recently, a year or 2 ago I was helping my shifu teach the dao form and a couple of students asked me what was happening with the Dao and why it moved that way. I told them it was blocking a spear, hand grabs the spear, Dao hits the other guy in the neck. They were rather shocked, never asked me about applications again, but I will say this, they like learning forms from me over anyone else helping my shifu. Was also recently asked to come back to class by another person who helps my shifu teach, but I just can't bring myself to go back and spend 2 hours only doing the taiji dance.

 

[mograph]

Are you training anything else? Why the change, if you don't mind me asking?

I was studying tai chi with a group that had no idea what it were doing -- nice people at the grass roots level, but lousy tai chi. Luckily, I had met a gentleman who does know what he's doing. Now I study qigong, yiquan and xingyiquan with him. If I have time, I'll join a Chen (Jack Yan) or Wu (Eddie Wu) school to complement those studies.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was studying tai chi with a group that had no idea what it were doing -- nice people at the grass roots level, but lousy tai chi. Luckily, I had met a gentleman who does know what he's doing. Now I study qigong, yiquan and xingyiquan with him. If I have time, I'll join a Chen (Jack Yan) or Wu (Eddie Wu) school to complement those studies.

I'd vote Eddie Wu, but then I don't know Jack Yan. I like the fact that part of Eddie Wu's curriculum is learning how to do a break fall.

 

[mograph]

Let's be honest: most people can't fight, no matter what system they train. Most people don't train realistically. That's life.

But that is a fault of the individual and how it has been passed along to him, and the failings in the instruction he has received and in his own training methods. It is not an indictment of the system itself.

Really honestly, so what? This means nothing.

Mmnh, not necessarily, if the system can be defined as teacher + material + student (in the aggregate). If a pattern of poor instruction and poor learning can be demonstrated, then that should be sufficient in spite of the initially valuable state of the material. This is because the poor student becomes the poor teacher, who then teaches poor material. Result? Poor system.

However, if the system is defined by that as originally set out by the founder, then the quality of the students and teachers is independent of the system as defined. To me, that doesn't represent the current state of the system, but its potential or ideal state.

So, are we discussing the value of the current state of taijiquan or the value of its ideal state?

 

[mograph]

I'd vote Eddie Wu, but then I don't know Jack Yan. I like the fact that part of Eddie Wu's curriculum is learning how to do a break fall.

Jack Yan is a disciple of Chen Zhenglei; and Dr. Shin Lin, who studies bioelectricity and qi at UC Irvine (California), studies with Jack when he can. Wu's school isn't far -- just need to find the time.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Jack Yan is a disciple of Chen Zhenglei; and Dr. Shin Lin, who studies bioelectricity and qi at UC Irvine (California), studies with Jack when he can. Wu's school isn't far -- just need to find the time.

I have become rather intrigued by two styles of late; Wu and Sun.

Wu because of Eddie Wu's curriculum and the fact that any applications I have seen from him make sense. And the Northern Wu version is supposed to be what came from Wu Quanyou who was in the Imperial Guards (Qing Dynasty China) so he knew how to fight before he ever began training with Yang Luchan and Banhou. However my Yang shifu absolutely hates anything Wu taijiquan.

Sun because of its Xingyi connection and it just makes sense to me and I have discussed Sun Lutang recently with a couple of people from China and they maintain that Sun was a fighter. His Taiji may have been deemed great for old people, but Sun could use it for fighting, as could his sons. But that fighting comes mostly from Xingyiquan

But if I lived in your area I would likely be checking out Eddie Wu's school

 

[Flying Crane]

Understood, and I agree, but this is just one straw that has been added to all the others that have been building up as it applies to 25 years of Taijiquan and how things have changed in that time as well as how the practitioners have change over that same period.

about 20 years ago, I was once in a class that was doing the taiji two person form. Basically it is a drill that switches back and forth between attacker and defender. It is also choreographed so it is not reality as it applies to a fight, but it is not meant to be, it is a drill, that is all. However it does require you do the forms properly. I was training with a gentleman who was very hung up in the mythology of taijiquan, but his form was rather sloppy. We went back and forth for a while and then I stopped him. I told him that if he continued doing the forms the way he was doing that it would not train him correctly as to how to respond to attack. He needed to complete each movement, not just do the thing half way. His angry response to me was "I don't DO martial arts...I DO TAI CHI" This was the first time I ran into this attitude. He was convinced that by simply going through the motions that somehow, magically, he would be indestructible and that his "Internal Tai Chi Chuan" was so far superior to any other art that it was beneath him to even think about anything he deemed "Marital Arts". I have run into this many times since. After that I started running into the Tai is not a martial art crowd, it is simply moving meditation. And I had no problem with that group if that is what they wanted. However, over time, that changed to anger when it was even mentioned that Taijiquan was a martial art. Had a woman storm out of my class, and never return, once when another student asked me about the marital arts of it.

Here is the thing, Xu beat up another deluded Taijiquan guy, that is all, nothing more. But the over all attitude about and view of taiji has changed drastically over the last 25 years and I am simply tired of dealing with it as well as trying to get the point across that it is ok if all you want is forms, but it is a martial art. More recently, a year or 2 ago I was helping my shifu teach the dao form and a couple of students asked me what was happening with the Dao and why it moved that way. I told them it was blocking a spear, hand grabs the spear, Dao hits the other guy in the neck. They were rather shocked, never asked me about applications again, but I will say this, they like learning forms from me over anyone else helping my shifu. Was also recently asked to come back to class by another person who helps my shifu teach, but I just can't bring myself to go back and spend 2 hours only doing the taiji dance.

Do YOUR stuff, and don't apologize for the system to anybody.

What a bunch of yokels on the internet think of it means nothing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Mmnh, not necessarily, if the system can be defined as teacher + material + student (in the aggregate). If a pattern of poor instruction and poor learning can be demonstrated, then that should be sufficient in spite of the initially valuable state of the material. This is because the poor student becomes the poor teacher, who then teaches poor material. Result? Poor system.

However, if the system is defined by that as originally set out by the founder, then the quality of the students and teachers is independent of the system as defined. To me, that doesn't represent the current state of the system, but its potential or ideal state.

So, are we discussing the value of the current state of taijiquan or the value of its ideal state?

Or the state of a particular lineage? The downstream from a poor instructor will not get better on its own.

One or a thousand lousy practitioners is not reperesentative of them all.

And yes, there are a lot of lousy ones.

The trick is, find a good one, taiji or otherwise.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Do YOUR stuff, and don't apologize for the system to anybody.

What a bunch of yokels on the internet think of it means nothing.

Agreed, I am not referring to people on the internet, I am referring to the majority of the taijiquan community these days

 

[Flying Crane]

Agreed, I am not referring to people on the internet, I am referring to the majority of the taijiquan community these days

Fair enough. But still, if what you have is better, keep it. Yes, there is a lot of crap out there. It's been that way for as long as I've been involved in the martial arts, no denying it.

Hell, I've seen maybe one or two videos on YT of my system, that I felt had merit or had potential. All others have been crap. But I feel that what I have is amazing, i received good instruction. I wont change what I am doing simply because a lot of other people suck.

Let them suck.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Fair enough. But still, if what you have is better, keep it. Yes, there is a lot of crap out there. It's been that way for as long as I've been involved in the martial arts, no denying it.

Hell, I've seen maybe one or two videos on YT of my system, that I felt had merit or had potential. All others have been crap. But I feel that what I have is amazing, i received good instruction. I wont change what I am doing simply because a lot of other people suck.

Let them suck.

Working at it, just hard to do without anyone who is interested in working at it as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

Working at it, just hard to do without anyone who is interested in working at it as well.

I understand the difficulties. I have them too.

But I would choose to quit altogether rather than go join an MMA gym. Yuck.

I'll keep muddling through it on my own, if that's all I have.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I understand the difficulties. I have them too.

But I would choose to quit altogether rather than go join an MMA gym. Yuck.

I'll keep muddling through it on my own, if that's all I have.

Not promoting going to MMA at all, nothing against it if that is what someone wants though. What I do feel about this whole Xu issue is that it should have been a wake up call for much of the martial arts in China and not an excuse for the government and MA orgs to suppress Xu. But with that said, I am not from China but even I know, you do what Xu did and you are just asking for government intervention.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Working at it, just hard to do without anyone who is interested in working at it as well.

Too bad you're not closer. I would love to learn Tai Chi from someone who understood it as a martial art. I think it would complement other aspects of what I do.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not promoting going to MMA at all, nothing against it if that is what someone wants though. What I do feel about this whole Xu issue is that it should have been a wake up call for much of the martial arts in China and not an excuse for the government and MA orgs to suppress Xu. But with that said, I am not from China but even I know, you do what Xu did and you are just asking for government intervention.

Sure, and I didn't think you were advocating an MMA gym. I'm just saying, I know where my interests are, and where they are not, and I stick with my stuff, regardless of the garbage floating around.

As for China, well since they pushed Modern Wushu, pretty much everyone in recent times has understood that stuff isn't even intended to be combat effective, even if the Chinese government might pretend otherwise. So who would be shocked by any of this?.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Too bad you're not closer. I would love to learn Tai Chi from someone who understood it as a martial art. I think it would complement other aspects of what I do.

What!!! you're not willing to commute......You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you have two groups of 5 martial arts students, all you know is that one is a group taken from a boxing gym and one is a group taken from a kung fu school. They are going to do some stand up fighting under san shou rules. Best of five gives the group the win. Which group would you bet on to win?

Too bad you're not closer. I would love to learn Tai Chi from someone who understood it as a martial art. I think it would complement other aspects of what I do.

It has helped me in the areas of sensitivity and awareness of my opponent. I don't know how to fight with the techniques but there are things in the training that helps with fighting in general.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It has helped me in the areas of sensitivity and awareness of my opponent. I don't know how to fight with the techniques but there are things in the training that helps with fighting in general.

Honestly, when I try new styles these days it's mostly for the sake of developing attributes or understanding of certain concepts through the training rather than learning any new techniques. I do try to test whether I can fight with the techniques I learn, but that's mostly just a check on how well I've internalized the concepts. It doesn't necessarily mean those techniques will become part of my regular toolbox. More often the attributes and conceptual understanding I develop are used to improve my primary skill sets.

 

[Steve]

Steve, not all BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai guys can fight. I have been in plenty a gym where there is a massive hierarchy between the good practitioner's and those that come in once in a while and treat it like a hobby. This is particularly true in mma gyms I have checked out here in Las Vegas. A little less in BJJ and a lot, lot, lot less in Muay Thai. Still there are guys that can't fight practicing sporting based martial arts. Most that I have encountered are the once or twice a week hobbyists though.

When I say, "I think most people who train boxing, BJJ, wrestling, judo, Muay Thai, MMA, or any other sport oriented art can fight," I have in mind someone who is free from any mental or physical impairments that would prevent them from engaging fully in the training, and who trains regularly, which in my opinion is three or more times each week in a school under a qualified instructor. This even applies to 'hobbyists.' I really didn't think this needed to be spelled out.

All of the other disclaimers I included in my last post still apply. A BJJ guy who can't strike and focuses on the ground will have gaps which can be a problem outside of the BJJ school.

Once again, the point is that a person who applies what they learn is developing actual skills which will be there under pressure.

I've said in other threads many times that the solution to overcoming the limitations of pressure and competition isn't to eliminate competition. if you want to address a shortcoming in the training, you expand the competition so that it tests the right things. A guy who trains in BJJ only and doesn't compete will progress slower than a guy who trains in BJJ and competes in an IBJJF rule set. That guy would be more well rounded if he competes in IBJJF and Sub only along with other rule sets. And THAT guy would be more well rounded if he trains in striking arts and competes in those rule sets. And THAT guy would be more well rounded if he expands his competition to include MMA.