Hopkins0603
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Is thinking of taking up Tai Chi with a view to learning it as a martial art and dumb and wasted idea?
Tai Chi Self Defence
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Not if you find the right instructor. Just be warned -- there's a lot of barely adequate, meditation/dance/new age tai chi out there where the martial applications have been lost.
It depends on what you are looking for. It could take years before you discover Self Defense value in Tai Chi. Just a suggestion, but I would start a good punch, kick, and block art that has kata and kata drills as a base. Take a little time to check out a few dojo's along with credentials. Once you have a base set, I feel that Tai Chi would be a great supplment to your training and you will have a much better understanding of it's worth.
No. It's really not. Taiji was used to protect the Chen Family & their village for generations.
However finding a teacher that's qualified to teach in it such a manner competently & realistically is a different story.
mograph
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The others are quite right -- finding a good teacher could be difficult.
The odds would improve if you were to search for "taijiquan", "applications", "push hands" and styles such as Wu or Sun, or especially Chen. You could find teachers of Yang style with a martial focus, but they would be more difficult to find, since most teachers who claim to teach Yang style don't teach applications ... in my experience. In other words, so few people teach Chen/Wu/Sun for health alone that the odds are good that if you found such a teacher, he/she would teach martial applications. But of course, if you found a Yang style teacher who taught martial applications, you should check out the class.
But it's an interesting question. I like seasoned's suggestion, but I might supplement it by suggesting that if you can't find a good taijiquan instructor that teaches applications, that you find one who teaches the fundamentals of relaxation in the application of force in general -- being loose yet connected, using whole-body strength. That would be a skill that could be applied to your kick/block/kata art.
By the way, if you were to check out a kick/block/kata art, I'd hope you found a teacher who did not advocate being hard and tight.
The odds would improve if you were to search for "taijiquan", "applications", "push hands" and styles such as Wu or Sun, or especially Chen. You could find teachers of Yang style with a martial focus, but they would be more difficult to find, since most teachers who claim to teach Yang style don't teach applications ... in my experience. In other words, so few people teach Chen/Wu/Sun for health alone that the odds are good that if you found such a teacher, he/she would teach martial applications. But of course, if you found a Yang style teacher who taught martial applications, you should check out the class.
But it's an interesting question. I like seasoned's suggestion, but I might supplement it by suggesting that if you can't find a good taijiquan instructor that teaches applications, that you find one who teaches the fundamentals of relaxation in the application of force in general -- being loose yet connected, using whole-body strength. That would be a skill that could be applied to your kick/block/kata art.
By the way, if you were to check out a kick/block/kata art, I'd hope you found a teacher who did not advocate being hard and tight.
I agree with the responses regarding finding the right teacher. I have worked with teachers that have focused on the health aspects, and the i have also worked with teachers that focused on the martial applications as well. I particularly enjoyed the push hands.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I’m a Yang style guy that trained some Chen that really would rather be doing Xingyiquan so take this for what it is worth
For the most part I agree with everything that has been said, I do have one minor issue which I will get into in a bit but right now I am going to add my opinion to the mix and in the process reiterate what has already been said.
Is/was Taijiquan a marital art? Yes
However finding a sifu, in any style, that knows the actual real live Taijiquan martial arts side of it is rare and finding a sifu that knows the real live actual Taijiquan martial arts side of it and is willing to teach it to you is even rarer. The reason I am adding “real live Taijiquan martial arts side” is because there are many out there that tell you they are teaching Taijiquan as a martial art but they really aren’t. They are teaching Taijiquan forms with Sports Sanda (Which is where I fear the 20th generation Chen family is heading) or they have taken another martial art and have combined with Taijiquan and are again teaching forms with applications from another style which in applications ore most certainly not Taijiquan.
Now let’s say you actually find a real live Taijiquan sifu and he is willing to train you. It is not a quick process, it takes a lot of patients and many years to get there and you have to have the view that your sifu knows better than you do as to what you are ready to learn.
As to styles that are more likely to still teach real live Taijiquan with the martial arts intact, and for the record I am only going to talk about the main 5 with one addition that claims to be one of the main 6 and what you find in the USA, there are others styles and other countries have all of these styles but I know little about them
- Yang style does still have martial arts but finding someone that actually knows it is very rare but IMO if you are going to find a sifu that knows the martial arts side of it you need to look for students of Fu Zhongwen or Tung Ying Chieh. Or look for students of Tung Ying Chieh’s oldest son Tung Hu Ling or Fu Zhongwen’s son Fu Shengyuan. Or students of Tung Hu Ling’s oldest son Tung Kai Ying. But I should also add that Vincent Chu is also teaching the martial arts of it and he is a student of his father Gin Soon Chu who was as student of Yang Shouzhong. Vincent was in Boston the last I knew.
- Chen style is more likely to have martial arts taught but even there I am starting to see taiji for health taking over. Even Chen Xiaowang has said that he feels Taijiquan as a martial art is dead because there are so many out there doing taiji that know absolutely nothing about the martial arts since of it and so few that do. But IMO if you want real Taijiquan martial arts you need to get close to students of or train with Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei. I am also told that Chen Xiaoxing and Chen Yu are good as well. As to the 20th generation, my thoughts on them are still out. They know the forms and they know how to fight it is just at this point what they are doing looks more like Sports Sanshou than Taijiquan
- Zhaobao Style (the 6th or first if you ask a Zhaobao guy) If you find a school in the USA that teaches Zhaobao style, not just a Zhaobao form, it is likely you will get into fighting but at the moment I only know of one real live Zhaobao sifu in the USA and he is somewhere in California. That does not mean there are not others; it just means I do not know about them if they are here
- Wu/Hao style. I have been told that Wu/Hao is still into martial arts but I have my suspicions is leading Chen down that path to the Taijiquan dance
- Sun style, not sure what to tell you here. To find a real live Sun person is difficult. I know of one that use to be in Boston and I have been told there is one in California, again there may be more but I don’t know who they are.
- Wu style. There is a Southern and Northern version of this and if I were looking for Southern WU I would look to people trained by the Wu family - International Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan Federation
As to the Northern version I would look to those that were trained by the guy who is currently the head of Northern Wu style in Beijing (sorry his name escapes me at the moment) or to the head himself. If that is what you are interested in contact David Dolbear in Syracuse NY.
Now the bit I am not in 100% agreement with and I should probably say nothing but I sometimes do not knwo when to shutup. First I have great respect for seasoned and I do not wish to offend him but I do not completely agree with this
I do agree that is depends on what you are looking for and I do agree that it could take years to discover the self defense value of Taijiquan. I will add it could take years even if you find a sifu that knows it and is willing to train it to you. And I also agree that you need to take time to find a school be that Taijiquan or something else. The part I do not agree with completely is this
Now if you are looking simply for self defense then I actually 100% agree with seasoned but if your goal is the martial side to Taijiquan that is where I have a problem.
I have spent many hours working with people from Karate, Taekwondo and other martial styles, I am working with one now actually, that I know are good martial artists but due to their previous training they are way to square way to rigid and way too inflexible and they have to unlearn much of what they have learned just to get the forms right and when it comes to applications they are using way too much power and remaining way to rigid and they have to learn how to relax in form and application.
If in fact you are looking for the martial side of Taijiquan I but want to start somewhere else I highly recommend you look to a Chinese Martial Art that would be considered a long fist style. The reason for this is, and as much as many taiji people do not want to admit this) Taiji is basically a long fist style. Its approach to confrontation and training is a bit different but in the static form is they are rather similar. I have also had a few Aikido people do rather well at Taijiquan as well.
But with all that said I will add that I once trained Taijiquan with a Uechi Ryu who although he had a problem with his kicks as they are done in Taijiquan, he got the rest down fairly well fairly fast. And for the record, I really did not want to get kicked by him even though it was still Uechi Ryu because that guy could kick damn hard.
For the most part I agree with everything that has been said, I do have one minor issue which I will get into in a bit but right now I am going to add my opinion to the mix and in the process reiterate what has already been said.
Is/was Taijiquan a marital art? Yes
However finding a sifu, in any style, that knows the actual real live Taijiquan martial arts side of it is rare and finding a sifu that knows the real live actual Taijiquan martial arts side of it and is willing to teach it to you is even rarer. The reason I am adding “real live Taijiquan martial arts side” is because there are many out there that tell you they are teaching Taijiquan as a martial art but they really aren’t. They are teaching Taijiquan forms with Sports Sanda (Which is where I fear the 20th generation Chen family is heading) or they have taken another martial art and have combined with Taijiquan and are again teaching forms with applications from another style which in applications ore most certainly not Taijiquan.
Now let’s say you actually find a real live Taijiquan sifu and he is willing to train you. It is not a quick process, it takes a lot of patients and many years to get there and you have to have the view that your sifu knows better than you do as to what you are ready to learn.
As to styles that are more likely to still teach real live Taijiquan with the martial arts intact, and for the record I am only going to talk about the main 5 with one addition that claims to be one of the main 6 and what you find in the USA, there are others styles and other countries have all of these styles but I know little about them
- Yang style does still have martial arts but finding someone that actually knows it is very rare but IMO if you are going to find a sifu that knows the martial arts side of it you need to look for students of Fu Zhongwen or Tung Ying Chieh. Or look for students of Tung Ying Chieh’s oldest son Tung Hu Ling or Fu Zhongwen’s son Fu Shengyuan. Or students of Tung Hu Ling’s oldest son Tung Kai Ying. But I should also add that Vincent Chu is also teaching the martial arts of it and he is a student of his father Gin Soon Chu who was as student of Yang Shouzhong. Vincent was in Boston the last I knew.
- Chen style is more likely to have martial arts taught but even there I am starting to see taiji for health taking over. Even Chen Xiaowang has said that he feels Taijiquan as a martial art is dead because there are so many out there doing taiji that know absolutely nothing about the martial arts since of it and so few that do. But IMO if you want real Taijiquan martial arts you need to get close to students of or train with Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei. I am also told that Chen Xiaoxing and Chen Yu are good as well. As to the 20th generation, my thoughts on them are still out. They know the forms and they know how to fight it is just at this point what they are doing looks more like Sports Sanshou than Taijiquan
- Zhaobao Style (the 6th or first if you ask a Zhaobao guy) If you find a school in the USA that teaches Zhaobao style, not just a Zhaobao form, it is likely you will get into fighting but at the moment I only know of one real live Zhaobao sifu in the USA and he is somewhere in California. That does not mean there are not others; it just means I do not know about them if they are here
- Wu/Hao style. I have been told that Wu/Hao is still into martial arts but I have my suspicions is leading Chen down that path to the Taijiquan dance
- Sun style, not sure what to tell you here. To find a real live Sun person is difficult. I know of one that use to be in Boston and I have been told there is one in California, again there may be more but I don’t know who they are.
- Wu style. There is a Southern and Northern version of this and if I were looking for Southern WU I would look to people trained by the Wu family - International Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan Federation
As to the Northern version I would look to those that were trained by the guy who is currently the head of Northern Wu style in Beijing (sorry his name escapes me at the moment) or to the head himself. If that is what you are interested in contact David Dolbear in Syracuse NY.
Now the bit I am not in 100% agreement with and I should probably say nothing but I sometimes do not knwo when to shutup. First I have great respect for seasoned and I do not wish to offend him but I do not completely agree with this
I do agree that is depends on what you are looking for and I do agree that it could take years to discover the self defense value of Taijiquan. I will add it could take years even if you find a sifu that knows it and is willing to train it to you. And I also agree that you need to take time to find a school be that Taijiquan or something else. The part I do not agree with completely is this
Now if you are looking simply for self defense then I actually 100% agree with seasoned but if your goal is the martial side to Taijiquan that is where I have a problem.
I have spent many hours working with people from Karate, Taekwondo and other martial styles, I am working with one now actually, that I know are good martial artists but due to their previous training they are way to square way to rigid and way too inflexible and they have to unlearn much of what they have learned just to get the forms right and when it comes to applications they are using way too much power and remaining way to rigid and they have to learn how to relax in form and application.
If in fact you are looking for the martial side of Taijiquan I but want to start somewhere else I highly recommend you look to a Chinese Martial Art that would be considered a long fist style. The reason for this is, and as much as many taiji people do not want to admit this) Taiji is basically a long fist style. Its approach to confrontation and training is a bit different but in the static form is they are rather similar. I have also had a few Aikido people do rather well at Taijiquan as well.
But with all that said I will add that I once trained Taijiquan with a Uechi Ryu who although he had a problem with his kicks as they are done in Taijiquan, he got the rest down fairly well fairly fast. And for the record, I really did not want to get kicked by him even though it was still Uechi Ryu because that guy could kick damn hard.
Just throwing in my two cents here. I have been practicing Taijiquan Yang Style for about a month now, my sifu has been teaching some relatively basic martial applications. While I can't say she is by any means an expert in the martial side of things, while doing the form, if you recognize a move as a block, a strike, or otherwise, it can help you to visualize scenarios that the form can be used. This has been said many times on this forum, but learning Taijiquan as a martial art will take time. I have been told that I should complete the entire long form before I start to even attempt push hands and other martial applications due to the requirement of needing to know where your hands and feet belong.
My final opinion is this, if you are not in a rush to get into a fight, Taijiquan will suit you well.
My final opinion is this, if you are not in a rush to get into a fight, Taijiquan will suit you well.
Diesel_tke
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You would be much better off starting with kickboxing and then learning tai chi after a year or so. I've been doing Chen pan ling tai chi for a few years. It works well in combat, but it takes a lot longer to learn than kickboxing. I was sparring with kickboxing within the first month!
blindsage
Master of Arts
Tim Cartmell's background is Sun style, but I believe he only teaches it directly in private lessons these days.
Bob Klein
White Belt
My teacher is William C. C. Chen and he is specifically devoted to the fighting aspect of Tai-chi-Chuan, as is his students. His students have opened up Tai-chi schools around the world and he travels around doing workshops in those schools.
In my school I insist on the students doing at least three years of forms, chi-gung and push hands to gain some basic skills before beginning fighting training. But you can go to a fighting as exercise class at the beginning in which you get used to the techniques.
In my school I insist on the students doing at least three years of forms, chi-gung and push hands to gain some basic skills before beginning fighting training. But you can go to a fighting as exercise class at the beginning in which you get used to the techniques.
Mine was Ron Jorgensen, another student of William Chen, and I would second that at least from my experience, his students are focused on the fighting aspect.
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GaryR
Green Belt
Not if you have the right teacher, and / or ability to make it work/blend it with something else.
IF your doing Tai Chi Chuan correctly you should only need it alone --(with the pseudo exception of groundfighting IMO).
Didn't see a location..but If your ever in LA, I'd be happy to show you, first rounds on you.
Best
G
My teacher in tai chi was Allen Schwerdt, his teacher was Stewart Olson, and his teacher was the famous T.T. Liang. This is as close as I've come to finding Tai Chi as an actual martial art. It's not what most people think. The best combative exercises was the two person danced. Drilled over and over with the fundamentals and gradually sped up, the dance teaches the reflexive motions for self defense.
mograph
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Is the progression (essentially) made from drilled dance to improvised dance to sparring?
Eventually. The dance gets faster and faster until you can pick up just about any improvised move. I'm not sure if turns into actual sparring in the way its done in most MA studios.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Not in my experience in Traditional Yang Taijiquan
You can drill the applications but the use of them is based more on feel and the opponent force.
The dance(which I am assuming is Tuishou or push hands) in Yang Taiji and as far as I can tell in Chen, is more for learning to feel where the opponents force is going
Traditional Yang Taiji, more than Chen and more than jsut about any other MA requires a lot of patience and relaxation in both learning and application
blindsage
Master of Arts
I actually think he's refering to the Yang Sanshou, 2 person form. Here's an old video of my teacher's teacher, Master Tchoung Ta Tchen (in the black coat) doing it:
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Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
My Yang sifu is not big on the two person form, there is a two person form from Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh > my sifu too
He feels it is good to learn but he does not feel it is good to train it much since it depends less on feel and more on automatic response to an expected attack that may not be coming in the same sequence (or with the same power) as the two person form trains and it alomost always leads to the use of too much power and/or dependence on external. Basically he feels it is best to simply forget it and spend more learning how the forms work, understanding the 13 posstures. qinna and push hands.
I kind of like it myself but I do understand what he is talking about and why it may not be a good idea to place to much importance on it.
He feels it is good to learn but he does not feel it is good to train it much since it depends less on feel and more on automatic response to an expected attack that may not be coming in the same sequence (or with the same power) as the two person form trains and it alomost always leads to the use of too much power and/or dependence on external. Basically he feels it is best to simply forget it and spend more learning how the forms work, understanding the 13 posstures. qinna and push hands.
I kind of like it myself but I do understand what he is talking about and why it may not be a good idea to place to much importance on it.
blindsage
Master of Arts
My sifu teaches it periodically (I'm learning now). He says that it is basically part of the progression to be able to use Taiji well: long form-> push hands-> da lu-> sanshou. But yes, if you don't understand how to do the moves using the proper principles it will fall apart, and if you only focus on the specific moves then, yes, it will be limited. My sifu teaches it to eventually improvise, but also, he seems to have an infinite number of variations on how to do any specific moves within the sanshou, especially when use different energies, qinna, sweeps, and throws. But just like anything else it's one training method, i.e. push hands is a great training method, but if it's all you do, especially fixed step, then you've missed the point.
