Tai Chi Combat Self Defense

[macher]

Just curious. Since Tai Chi is a martial art for combat and / or self defense does anyone know how it was originally taught to be functional and effective as quick as possible?

 

[Flying Crane]

The slow forms are only a portion of the system. Originally taiji had fast forms as well, and in Chen Village those who really understand the method still train in ways that are very similar to what you might see in any other school teaching a viable combat method. They use heavy contact and application drills, conditioning and strength training, etc. slow form is only a part of it.

In the West where the combat side is largely not understood, people tend to focus on slow form and often do not realize there is much more to it.

 

[macher]

The slow forms are only a portion of the system. Originally taiji had fast forms as well, and in Chen Village those who really understand the method still train in ways that are very similar to what you might see in any other school teaching a viable combat method. They use heavy contact and application drills, conditioning and strength training, etc. slow form is only a part of it.

In the West where the combat side is largely not understood, people tend to focus on slow form and often do not realize there is much more to it.

Thanks. There is a Chen teacher in Philly. I’m going to visit one of his classes. Well he only teaches once a week at Boat House Row in Philly.

 

[lansao]

One thing we can learn from Tai Chi, apart from the specific forms, is how to practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse. I practice Wing Chun, please don't think me a know-it-all for it. I'm always looking to learn new and carry a beginners mind with me wherever I go. Recently, I recorded my wooden dummy form as it helps me correct mistakes in my practice. In this video, I aim to be as silent as possible, working the dummy slowly with Tai Chi'ish movement in mind. Similarly, the same skill is also useful to Chi Sao practice.
YouTube

 

[macher]

One thing we can learn from Tai Chi, apart from the specific forms, is how to practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse. I practice Wing Chun, please don't think me a know-it-all for it. I'm always looking to learn new and carry a beginners mind with me wherever I go. Recently, I recorded my wooden dummy form as it helps me correct mistakes in my practice. In this video, I aim to be as silent as possible, working the dummy slowly with Tai Chi'ish movement in mind. Similarly, the same skill is also useful to Chi Sao practice.
YouTube

Video isn’t there.

 

[lansao]

Video isn’t there.

It was just too fast...

 

[lansao]

It was just too fast...

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[Flying Crane]

One thing we can learn from Tai Chi, apart from the specific forms, is how to practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse. I practice Wing Chun, please don't think me a know-it-all for it. I'm always looking to learn new and carry a beginners mind with me wherever I go. Recently, I recorded my wooden dummy form as it helps me correct mistakes in my practice. In this video, I aim to be as silent as possible, working the dummy slowly with Tai Chi'ish movement in mind. Similarly, the same skill is also useful to Chi Sao practice.
YouTube

Well, I would say that taiji is not so much about moving slowly as it is about full body connection. It is just that the slow practice can help you recognize and understand the connection.

But slow does not equal taiji.

 

[lansao]

Well, I would say that taiji is not so much about moving slowly as it is about full body connection. It is just that the slow practice can help you recognize and understand the connection.

But slow does not equal taiji.

That’s way more than fair.

 

[lansao]

That’s way more than fair.

Here’s one that I think better demonstrates the body connection you can find with slow practice. I try to let her rip here and make a few mistakes.

 

[ChenAn]

What Chen village offered today is very far from traditional Chenshi taijiquan.

Modern wrestling aka competitive tui shou only good within Chen tai chi circles. It’s also modern creation. Tui shou never meant to be for competition.

It may look impressive but when proficient judo players enters Chen push hands competitions they usually win. Unfortunately, Chinese usually keep quiet about such occasions , so not many people simply don’t know.

First example comes to mind is Mario Napoli - a yang taiji practitioner with heavy judo background. He won tui shou competition by beating the village “bad ***” older Wang Xian son. There is may be still video on YouTube of this.

The sport fighting exhibited by younger Chenjiahou generation has little or nothing to do with traditional Chen style, it’s more modern sanda training .

Traditional fighting skills slowly washed and faded away. There were few branches which able more less to keep authentic Chenshi fighting method. Among others Feng Ziqian (although late FZQ was not interested in combative aspect), some representatives of so call small frame xiojia , and some practitioners from Chen Zhaokui line. Chen Zhaokui line best representatives would be his son Chen Yu( my line), Zhen Maozheb and few other CZK students who’s name escapes my mind at the moment.

 

[ChenAn]

I have a bits and pieces of traditional Chen method on my website here
http://chentaijistudy.com/resources.html


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[JowGaWolf]

Well, I would say that taiji is not so much about moving slowly as it is about full body connection. It is just that the slow practice can help you recognize and understand the connection.

But slow does not equal taiji.

correct. To piggy back on your statement.

practice movement slowly and smoothly enough to write an efficient and continuous network of abstract and angular "tracks" for our muscle memory to traverse.

The slow movement helps the practitioner become more aware of the body, how it moves, the muscles involved, subtle shifts in balance, connection of movement and breathing. As you say it's a full body connection. Everything begins and ends together. Everything flows together not so much in the context of transition but in the context of flowing together for the same purpose.

In boxing pivot the hips to generate power for the punch. In Tai Chi hit with the entire body.. There's no separation. If we look at some of the striking arts the strikes are spoke of as "stages" and people will often break it down and explain how each part moves. With Tai Chi is like one big movement of "relax and move everything together."

it sounds easy but it's very difficult, especially if you are naturally a stiff or tense person.

The good news is that practicing slowly does help but not in the same way that slow movement in Tai Chi has.

Tai Chi is like trying to become aware that that your blood is actually moving through your veins and you can feel it against the wall of your veins with every movement. Once you learn that then you learn how to feel the same thing from your opponent. In terms of fast learning. It's definitely not that. Train Tai Chi and last, and you'll be guaranteed to have better patience lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What Chen village offered today is very far from traditional Chenshi taijiquan.

Modern wrestling aka competitive tui shou only good within Chen tai chi circles. It’s also modern creation. Tui shou never meant to be for competition.

It may look impressive but when proficient judo players enters Chen push hands competitions they usually win. Unfortunately, Chinese usually keep quiet about such occasions , so not many people simply don’t know.

First example comes to mind is Mario Napoli - a yang taiji practitioner with heavy judo background. He won tui shou competition by beating the village “bad ***” older Wang Xian son. There is may be still video on YouTube of this.

The sport fighting exhibited by younger Chenjiahou generation has little or nothing to do with traditional Chen style, it’s more modern sanda training .

Traditional fighting skills slowly washed and faded away. There were few branches which able more less to keep authentic Chenshi fighting method. Among others Feng Ziqian (although late FZQ was not interested in combative aspect), some representatives of so call small frame xiojia , and some practitioners from Chen Zhaokui line. Chen Zhaokui line best representatives would be his son Chen Yu( my line), Zhen Maozheb and few other CZK students who’s name escapes my mind at the moment.

From experience on the wrong end of Tai Chi. It hurts. A system that is design to attack and counter during points of little to no resistance. If punch is traveling in a linear direction then tai chi is attacking the punch lateral direction. The more force the punch has, the more damaging the lateral counter is.

If often reminds me of how American football players get nailed. Look for the blocks that aren't head-on block. Look for the blocks that occur where there is the least amount of resistance. These are often called blindside blocks. When I was doing push hands this is exactly the feeling I got. My attacks were constant being blind sided.

 

[ChenAn]

Lol I have problem with usage of the word “relax”. I’ve seen multiple taiji “noodles” landing on their butt during simple pressure test. Whatever original meaning of that “fan song” relative to martial art, the best way to describe it is “not stagnant” I have Chinese student who often laughs at western translation of original taiji transcript

By the way slow work usually referred as “jibengong” a gradual process of grinding gong fu. There are prerequisite however. It’s not just “relax” and feel your muscles with energy. It’s new age hippy things. “Body work” has a specific function, and strict rules are applied on how structure is held during motion. That is why practice is very slow which is quite beater .

For example first Chen form traditionally take 40+ minutes to finish from the beginning to the end. And if all rules apply it’s not easy even for advance practitioner .




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[ChenAn]

From experience on the wrong end of Tai Chi. It hurts. A system that is design to attack and counter during points of little to no resistance. If punch is traveling in a linear direction then tai chi is attacking the punch lateral direction. The more force the punch has, the more damaging the lateral counter is.

If often reminds me of how American football players get nailed. Look for the blocks that aren't head-on block. Look for the blocks that occur where there is the least amount of resistance. These are often called blindside blocks. When I was doing push hands this is exactly the feeling I got. My attacks were constant being blind sided.

Yes traditional Chen method prefer less resistance. However, circumstances may present very fast and proficient aggressor. In this case taiji practitioner will discover hard time complying with ideal principles. My line provides with “ tools” in this case. It’s quick and dirty but still internal and somewhat less resistance(thanks for 20th century upgrade)

By the way exposure to proficient western boxing opponent may contribute to re-evaluation of some orthodox concept . Unfortunately most taiji practitioners using fellow taiji players as partner which often give illusion that things seemingly work. We all saw a vid how taiji guru was beaten by a mean and lousy Chinese MMA guy?


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[JowGaWolf]

Lol I have problem with usage of the word “relax”. I’ve seen multiple taiji “noodles” landing on their butt during simple pressure test. Whatever original meaning of that “fan song” relative to martial art, the best way to describe it is “not stagnant” I have Chinese student who often laughs at western translation of original taiji transcript

I was the opposite. For me Relax was the right translation because I'm naturally tense and Jow Ga training just makes that worst for me. When I first started Tai Chi it was like I was doing the robot. lol.

A lot of westerners tend to believe that power comes form tension and as a result, we lose a lot of the power that we would have if we relaxed. But, you are exactly right, the translations aren't as accurate as they could be or should be.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unfortunately most taiji practitioners using fellow taiji players as partner which often give illusion that things seemingly work.

Yep. It's always necessary to "play outside of the box." Style A vs Style A will often skew understanding of applications and it's not until someone gets into a Style A vs Style B exchange that one will learn if he or she really understands the concepts as well as they thought think they do.

This is something we see happen over and over again.

 

[macher]

Yep. It's always necessary to "play outside of the box." Style A vs Style A will often skew understanding of applications and it's not until someone gets into a Style A vs Style B exchange that one will learn if he or she really understands the concepts as well as they thought think they do.

This is something we see happen over and over again.

Traditionally how do you learn Tai Chi to start to learn how to defend yourself? Ok I understand it takes many years to master Tai Chi. But there has to be elements of training to so a practitioner can use something right away or quickly.

 

[macher]

Been watching this guys channel...

formlessfighter

He seems to teach in a way to apply the functionality of the forms. I visited 3 Tai Chi schools and so far haven’t seen Tai Chi taught this way.