Taekwondo sparring vid.
- Thread starter Laborn
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Always enjoy those vids. Then when I go home and watch my training vids, it feels like mine are recorded in sloowwww motion. :lol2:
Thanks for the post!
Thanks for the post!
you just have to love the speed of the youth fighters.
terry
terry
jdinca
Master Black Belt
A question out of ignorance of TKD. Is there any reason why nobody bothered to lift up their arms and guard their heads? The leg speed was impressive but their hands rarely came above belt level.
The MMA kid!
Green Belt
jdinca said:
because, like i have posted in another thread, it is a bad habit developed from over concentration of the sport aspect of TKD.
it is also the same reason why i hate watching this type of sparring now.
it is also why i will not watch TKD in the olympics
it is also why i got bloody lips during so many crosstraining bouts.
it is also why the TKD fighters that sparred in our school experienced the same if not worse experience i had.
it is also why Olympic TKD has recieved a bad name to many in the martial arts community.
I love the section where they are shoulder to shoulder and one dose a jump roud house to the head. It may not have taken the opponet out but it was beautifly done.
I agree that sparring with the hands down is why many who do olimpic style TKD may not do well in cross training, its a BAD habit to get into.
Man oh man they have fast feet
I agree that sparring with the hands down is why many who do olimpic style TKD may not do well in cross training, its a BAD habit to get into.
Man oh man they have fast feet
jdinca said:
Mainly because the rules are designed to strongly discourage punching. No hand strikes to the face, punches to the body are legal, but rarely scored. Also while some people insist there's no power in those kicks, blocking one with an arm isn't always the best idea.
The MMA kid!
Green Belt
Marginal said:
I got first place in a tournament by blocking.
i was sown on points. i keep my hands up, he kicks my elbow, goes down screaming in pain.
I win.
a defensive win. ( i did not elbow intentionally, just the way it happened.)
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
I knew a guy who blocked a kick with his arm while sparring and broke his arm
Tony
Black Belt
Both guys had good techniques and speed but I didn't see any hand techniques at all. I know you're not allowed to punch to the head in Taekwondo but it does limit things. The only time the hands came into play was when blocking kicks and using a takedown.
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Those guys were very good, and very good representation of WTF sport style, regardless of the ridiculous hands down fighting style they did a good job of showing the cool aspect of WTF fighting. Very exciting, good speed and good power, amazing footwork. Makes me kind of sad though, guys like that would do really well if they branched out into muay thai or even traditional style TKD (ITF) where they punch to the head and keep their guard up for the most part. Keep in mind I dont mean just show up and fight one of those guys, I mean actually train a new style to mastery and using the speed and power they already have to become champions in another style. But almost ALL martial artist stick to what they know they are good at, they refuse to fall back and learn something new until they are excellent at that too, makes me sad.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Several reasons. Sparring as it's represented though the colored ranks is very different than the level of what you're watching in the vid. Simply put, what works at the lower ranks, doesn't work at that level. Even WTF style is taught with the arms up blocking in the beginning. Why don't we see it at the top level? Because it isn't effective at that level.jdinca said:
Blocking with arms often nets you nothing more than a broken arm. Sparring at that level is an offensive sport. You think offense. If you wait to see what your opponent is going to do, you've already lost. Defense doesn't mean block, it means don't be there.
Your arms are more effective used to as leverage to counter what you're doing with your legs. Watch the vid and pick a multi kick move to try. Try it with your arms high and tight, then loose at your sides. If done correctly, you'll notice the difference in speed, power and range.
To score at that level, you need every advantage you can get. You can't "sorta" be effective. WTF style has dictated what works and what doesn't. Many people make remarks about it because they don't understand what they're watching. Instead of saying "why would they do that?" (a logical question such as you have asked), they say "that's stupid! they don't know what they're doing!". Yea....okay...
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Gemini, correct me if Im mistaken but the main reason that WTF doesnt block is because if I cover my torso with my arms, and you kick them, its a point anyway right?!
Blocking doesn't get you a broken arm.... Ive been blocking full contact TKD kicks for 16 years and full contact muay thai kicks for 5 years, occasionally I get a disabled arm in muay thai but thats why Im supposed to block my torso with my knee.
If punching was a viable way to score or punching was allowed to the head, then those hands would be up, trust me.
My point is, yes what you said about effectiveness at that level and speed and balance was correct but only based on the rule set of sport TKD. But that arm breaking statement was incorrect. WTF often leans toward the propaganda line of "blocking doesnt work". It works fine, but not if blocking doesnt stop a point.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Blocking doesn't get you a broken arm.... Ive been blocking full contact TKD kicks for 16 years and full contact muay thai kicks for 5 years, occasionally I get a disabled arm in muay thai but thats why Im supposed to block my torso with my knee.
If punching was a viable way to score or punching was allowed to the head, then those hands would be up, trust me.
My point is, yes what you said about effectiveness at that level and speed and balance was correct but only based on the rule set of sport TKD. But that arm breaking statement was incorrect. WTF often leans toward the propaganda line of "blocking doesnt work". It works fine, but not if blocking doesnt stop a point.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Gemini, your post begs a question that's been in my mind...or continues a line of thought that's been going for a bit now. That being that to be really good at Olympic sparring develops tactics and techniques that are not very effective anywhere but within the rules Olympic sparring.
The other day in class we were working on some drills that required a very fast snap back on the kick; kick fast, kick up at 45 degrees (roundhouse), slap the target, snap your foot back, and down, fast. Drills like this have been the toughtest for me to adapt to in the new school because in my prior school I was taught to roundhouse kick with the flat, hips fully over, strike perpedicular to the plane ot the target approach, and was taught to drive for six inches of penetration on kicks. This is much more powerful a strike, at a sacrifice of the recovery speed. At least to hear my previos instructor talk about the 45 vs 90 degree kick, and from talking to another adult, who is a BB, after class here. He also was talking about "in a fight, you don't want a fast snap back because it's not very powerful"
I remember before reading posts on this forum about TKD kicking "light" with only surface contact, and at the time I protested the assertion because I had been taught to kick with power and deep penetration and didn't really realize that I was being taught in a way that may or may not be typical for TKD school, but is atypical for what you see in successful WTF sparring matches.
Anyway, in comparing and contrasting and observing, it's starting to seem to me that to be really, really, good at sparring, or WTF sparring at least, requires one to learn tactics and application of techniques that don't really fit into the large context of TKD as a martial art for actual self-defense. I was first taught to treat sparring as just a part of training a larger view of Taekwondo, to practice reacting fast to an opponent with independent thinking and to stay calm and in control, etc... Not to view sparring as a goal or accomplishment in itself. It is seeming to me that such a view precludes me from ever being a realy great WTF sparrer, and I'm ok with that, but I guess I'm a bit discouraged that the rules of WTF sparring encourage a style of competition that is not very good outside of that sport, and tends to give TKD as a whole a less than favorable reputation
The other day in class we were working on some drills that required a very fast snap back on the kick; kick fast, kick up at 45 degrees (roundhouse), slap the target, snap your foot back, and down, fast. Drills like this have been the toughtest for me to adapt to in the new school because in my prior school I was taught to roundhouse kick with the flat, hips fully over, strike perpedicular to the plane ot the target approach, and was taught to drive for six inches of penetration on kicks. This is much more powerful a strike, at a sacrifice of the recovery speed. At least to hear my previos instructor talk about the 45 vs 90 degree kick, and from talking to another adult, who is a BB, after class here. He also was talking about "in a fight, you don't want a fast snap back because it's not very powerful"
I remember before reading posts on this forum about TKD kicking "light" with only surface contact, and at the time I protested the assertion because I had been taught to kick with power and deep penetration and didn't really realize that I was being taught in a way that may or may not be typical for TKD school, but is atypical for what you see in successful WTF sparring matches.
Anyway, in comparing and contrasting and observing, it's starting to seem to me that to be really, really, good at sparring, or WTF sparring at least, requires one to learn tactics and application of techniques that don't really fit into the large context of TKD as a martial art for actual self-defense. I was first taught to treat sparring as just a part of training a larger view of Taekwondo, to practice reacting fast to an opponent with independent thinking and to stay calm and in control, etc... Not to view sparring as a goal or accomplishment in itself. It is seeming to me that such a view precludes me from ever being a realy great WTF sparrer, and I'm ok with that, but I guess I'm a bit discouraged that the rules of WTF sparring encourage a style of competition that is not very good outside of that sport, and tends to give TKD as a whole a less than favorable reputation
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
As to the arm thing....as I mentioned I know a guy whos arm was broken blocking a kick, so it does happen, but then I was taught not to try to block a kick with a single arm (use the two arm X bloxk, or get out of the way), but then I was taught to kick for six inches of penetrations into the target so I guess 'full contact' can mean a lot of things...
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
Fearless, if you are insinuating that muay thai full contact matches are somehow less full contact than the way you kick..... I dont know what to say to that heh. These guys can kick through baseball bats with thier shin. People die in the ring here. Not sure if this is what you meant, if you did I suggest you learn about muay thai as it will open your eyes.
Ya Ive heard of someone getting their arm broken blocking too, but thats the exception not the rule, same thing happens in muay thai, they go to block the leg kick with the shin and their leg gets broken right in 2 pieces, the only thing from seperating the leg from the body is the muscle and ligaments/skin holding it all together. But again, that is the exception, out of a million blocked leg kicks one goes bad.
Anyway, one arm block, x block, we dont block like that. Watch western kickboxing, the guard is up elbows down at your sides like a boxer, the turning kick comes wailing in and if your blocking you dont move your arm at all, its already there you just tense it up and abosorb it. I do see how an arm could get broken if you are reaching out to block.... but thats how begginers block.... keep arms in, absorb, never reach out, the leg will win if the 2 are rushing towards each other.
Having said all that I agree that getting out of the way is best, blocking in any way is taking punishment and will slow you down or disable you eventually, but that is not possible in full contact ring matches (you know, with a ring and ropes and corners) and in self defence we can only hope we have room to move.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Ya Ive heard of someone getting their arm broken blocking too, but thats the exception not the rule, same thing happens in muay thai, they go to block the leg kick with the shin and their leg gets broken right in 2 pieces, the only thing from seperating the leg from the body is the muscle and ligaments/skin holding it all together. But again, that is the exception, out of a million blocked leg kicks one goes bad.
Anyway, one arm block, x block, we dont block like that. Watch western kickboxing, the guard is up elbows down at your sides like a boxer, the turning kick comes wailing in and if your blocking you dont move your arm at all, its already there you just tense it up and abosorb it. I do see how an arm could get broken if you are reaching out to block.... but thats how begginers block.... keep arms in, absorb, never reach out, the leg will win if the 2 are rushing towards each other.
Having said all that I agree that getting out of the way is best, blocking in any way is taking punishment and will slow you down or disable you eventually, but that is not possible in full contact ring matches (you know, with a ring and ropes and corners) and in self defence we can only hope we have room to move.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Wrong. I have seen it happen, but it's the exception, not the rule.Damian Mavis said:
In my last match, I broke my opponents wrist in 2 places, because he blocked. An arm is no match for a leg. If you've never had a broken bone, I'm glad for you, because I hate to see it and even more so, hate to be the cause of it. But don't confuse that with it doesn't happen. It does.Damian Mavis said:
You're correct. But it's NOT legal. That's the whole point. "If's" aren't relevant. It is what it is and players have adjusted accordingly after learning what works and what doesn't on the mat in their style of competition.Damian Mavis said:
That's because it's the topic we're discussing. If we were watching a Muay Thai match, I wouldn't have said it because it wouldn't have pertained to that.Damian Mavis said:
Hope that clarifies a bit. :asian:
You've brought up a real interesting point here. To be good at WTF style does separate and take away from traditionally taught self defense TKD. If you want to be the best of the best, YES! you will have to learn and practice what on the street would be considered some very bad habits. Though they have many of the same training methods and techniques, there comes a point when the training parts ways. That's why you'll see so many senior members protest it and scream for rule changes, wanting it to more closely resemble our art. You can still be very good at both, but you can never be your best at both. At some point you have to decide, because whichever you're practicing means you're not practicing the other. You're deviding your focus.FearlessFreep said:
Actually, I wasn't really impressed with their attacking methods, they were sacrificing balance and stability, I'd least like to see them stay on their feet while trying to kick.
Punches are a viable way to score in WTF competitions now, and you can ask the guy I TKOed the other day with a punch to the solar plexus about their effectiveness.
Punches are a viable way to score in WTF competitions now, and you can ask the guy I TKOed the other day with a punch to the solar plexus about their effectiveness.
