Tactical Stuff

[Tgace]

Anybody teach any of the more modern tactical principals such as combat mindset, mindset color code, OODA loop etc. In their schools?

I know that they are more popular in firearms circles than martial arts circles but believe that they could be of value. Anybody interested in the topic??

 

[Tgace]

In the spirit of sharing information (and not throwing around a lot of jargon w/o explination) Heres the Mental Awareness Color Code as developed by Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, a noted firearms trainer who modified the military's color code for civilian and law enforcement use. They are:

Condition WHITE: You are totally unprepared, not aware of your surroundings. If caught in condition WHITE, you will likely be overwhelmed before being able to counter-attack. The only time that an armed person should be in Condition WHITE is when they are asleep.

Condition YELLOW: Youre in a state of relaxed awareness, aware of surroundings, but not concentrating on any specific threat. Any armed person should live in Condition YELLOW.

Condition ORANGE: Youre attention is concentrated on a potential threat, based upon instincts and observation- think tactics.

Condition RED: Youre aware of danger, prepared to respond or take evasive action immediately. Here you have a tendency to revert to conditioned response (read: TRAINING)

Some modern tacticians have added Condition BLACK: here you are in a state of panic and unable to act in a rational manner typically entered into by people not properly trained where the training environment was so unlike actual conditions that panic takes over.


It has been noted that Condition YELLOW is not paranoia. A person can live their entire life in Condition YELLOW with no ill effects.

 

[Touch Of Death]

kenpo 2000 uses color codes of awarness.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I use it when I give a self defense class. In Particular when my Friend Rev Jenn Bixby calls me up asks me to talk to the womens group for an afternoon. I do not have much time, so I cover awareness, and have used the color codes to help describe.

:asian:

 

[Tgace]

One of the more "cutting edge" concepts in tactical thought is the OODA loop as developed by the late Col. John Boyd (USAF). He was a scholar in military tactics, and is one of the greatest influence in America's military tactical doctrine.

One of Boyds studies was about the high kill ratio US pilots were were having (10:1) in Korea when the Koreans had better aircraft (MiG). Boyd found that the US had better trained pilots, the F-86 allowed better visibility than the MiG, and it had controls that allowed faster maneuerability. Based on these observations Boyd reasoned that the better-trained American pilots could observe the enemy more quickly because of better visibility, and they could decide on a course of action faster due to good training. Once the course of action was decided, the faster control on the F-86 allowed it to execute maneuvers much faster than the MiG. Thus an F-86 pilot had little lag time in observation-orientation-decision-and-action and could operate inside the adversary's response time envelope.

The extension of these findings found their way into all areas of personal combat. All conflicts are duels between competitors. In these duels each competitor OBSERVES his opponent, ORIENTS himself to the opponent and the unfolding events, DECIDES on a course of action based on that orientation, training and experience, and finally ACTS out his decision.

This is the OODA Loop. Whoever can move through this process faster, gains the advantage over his foes by disrupting their ability to respond in a timely or effective manner. The Orientation portion of the cycle is the most important, and the weak point whereby an opponent may penetrate the decision cycle.

Each of us bases our decisions on observations of the outside world that are filtered through mental models (sometimes called paradigms) that orient us to the opportunities or dangers presented by our observations. In confrontations, an opponent makes decisions based on his orientation to the situation. This orientation changes and evolves because it is formed by the ongoing interaction between observations of unfolding events and a mental dialog that strives to make sense of the situation.

With this understanding, we can see that an aggressive operator who initiates the action after proper observation, orientation, and
decision will have an overwhelming advantage over a reactive individual. The basic reason is that the aggressive operator's cycle
is at the end or action phase, whereas his opponent's cycle is at the beginning or middle. The aggressive operator has already oriented himself to his opponent (sometimes simply recognizing that he is an enemy is enough), and decided on a course of action based on that orientation.

The accuracy of the decision is determined at the Orientation part of the cycle by the information available to the operator, as well as how it is filtered and organized. The orientation phase is the most critical part of the cycle since it shapes the way we interpret the situation.

Everything is based on having good Situational Awareness (Where Am I? What is Going On Around Me ? Where Am I Going ? What Will I Do When I Get there?). An unfolding confrontation may be avoided, or it may be overcome unannounced, from a position of advantage.

An example of this in MA is the simple triangle step. The opponent attacks and we move into or away from the strike with our footwork. The oponent OBSERVES our avoidance and new position and attemps to ORIENT himself to it and deliver another attack. But we have already blocked/avioded the attack and have a counter on the way. We ACTED before the oponent could finish his orientation, thus entering his OODA loop. The key is agressive action and keeping the pressure on so we stay that step ahead. It sounds simplistic, but is considered the American equivilant of say "The Art of War" when any conflict is looked at in this way (military, personal combat, business, sports) and techniques are analyzed and developed with it as its model, good things have been hapening. "Whew" I must be becoming a tactical geek. Hope that all made sense.

 

[loki09789]

Tom has been really great about sharing this stuff with me since I have left active service/leo duty for the softer life of an English teacher I like the OODA loop because it is just a continuum that is general enough to work in Martial arts, military maneuver warfare, sports....

This is kind of the point that I was trying to make with the technical, tactical, strategy comment that I made on the now dead thread. There are 'games' that I play with kids classes - adult classes do 'exercises' and 'applications' because games don't sound mature - that moved from technical into tactical because the format is closer to application of 'stranger danger'/self defense scenarios.

I got a 'pickle in the middle' drill from Jerome (it's on the symposium DVD), but basically it prepares you for surprise attacks and tests technical control and self control under a stressful conditions. It is more than technical because it simulates the stress of a self defense situation.

The Tapi-Tapi type drills can be seen as tactical in a sense because there is no real pattern and they definitely introduce stress. As a self defense focused instructor, though, I try and create tactical drills that simulate the real world scenarios that students may come across. I still use the FMA drills for technical and tactical development, but I set up other ways that students can translate FMA into self defense.

I notice that FMA drills in general (THIS IS NOT A SLAM JUST AN OBSERVATION), if they are taught without that tactical scenario component, prepare students for 'fights' and more of a dueling condition. I add the tactical component because of my military/leo influence. It sets up the student in as close to a real world condition as I can create within safety, budget and environmental conditions.

What kind of tactical considerations do other instructors address regularly during classes (where do you escape to, how do you report, parking lots...)?

Paul Martin

 

[arnisador]

Many FMA have a strong dueling component in their history and it's no slight to point that out. This is great if stick fencing is what one desires but otherwise it's important to keep an eye our for things that are focused more on dueling than fighting.

But then, fighting is itself only one way of defending oneself--how often do we practice distracting someone then running away?

 

[Tgace]

On the duel vs. self-defense issue... Ive found that most styles of martial art that ive studied tend to emphasise "sparring" over committed attack/counter attack, self-defense techniques that may last only a second or two. From what ive seen (qualified statement) Krav Maga, due to its military hand-to-hand heritage does address this issue somewhat. The problem lies in training longevity. Most military/LE hand to hand training is designed to give the student a set of simple defensive "tools" that he learns and takes out into the field. Few of these "styles" are designed to keep the student coming back to train for "life" like a classical style tends to do. If youre looking to find an "Art" where you can explore deeper issues than just pure self-defense than some of these "street defense schools" may not be for you. I think that as Martial "Artists" we need to find that middle ground of combat effectiveness and "Art".

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I have recently split knife program into two sections for this very reason. Some times we focus too much on the "ART" part of martial arts.

 

[Rocky]

Tgrace Wrote:

It sounds simplistic, but is considered the American equivilant of say "The Art of War" when any conflict is looked at in this way (military, personal combat, business, sports) and techniques are analyzed and developed with it as its model, good things have been hapening. "Whew" I must be becoming a tactical geek. Hope that all

I would say it is the art of war, sometimes in our haste to be to techinical and complex we over look the simplistic and obvious.

Observation is everything in life, in business quite often someone will see somebody making money at something, so they jump in on it, not realizing all that is involved, which often results in their failure. You know the saying fools rush in.

Its like the old story of the father and son bull standing on top of the hill and the son says hey dad how about we run down there and bang a couple those cows silly. The old man looks back at his son and says, how about we walk down there and bang them all silly. Both had the right idea, but one had a better observation of the situation.


Paul Wrote:

I notice that FMA drills in general (THIS IS NOT A SLAM JUST AN OBSERVATION), if they are taught without that tactical scenario component

I think this is true with most arts. When I was a kid training in Wing Chun Do Under James Clark, he use to put us in high pressure adrenilline type of train all the time, in fact this guy was more like a Marine drill Sgt. than a Martial Arts instructor, but I learned a lot from him, and I am very appreciative of his type of instruction, he was for ever beating into our head learn the drill, apply the drill then stress test the drill as he would say.

On the duel vs. self-defense issue... Ive found that most styles of martial art that ive studied tend to emphasise "sparring" over committed attack/counter attack, self-defense techniques that may last only a second or two.

How true, this is why in Cuentada De Mano, I developed the tuboks, or responses. If you notice most arts train against themselves, a simplistic example would be one steps. In CDM students are taught responses from every angel we can think of, from a right cross, over hand right, hook, kung fu/karate punch, right down to the good old American bar room brawler ( IMHO, some of the best martial artist) who just puts his head down and starts swinging, these guys have destroyed many a martial arts who thought they knew what they were doing. We teach these resopnses and when they understand them we juice them up, and its amazing how quickly things change!!! But once a person understands, how quickyl a bad situation can get worst, they start to realize just how important enviroment training and obsrvation of one surrounding are!

Rocky

 

[Tgace]

Interesting stuff Rock. What has been on my mind lately is how as Martial Artists we learn/teach "how to fight" meaning the techinal/physical techniques of fighting, but thats only 1/2 (maybe even less) of the equation. Whats really important is "combat mindset". How often have you seen students that, while they may be able to master technique, just dont have that "grit". The fighting spirit so to speak. Is that something that can even be taught?
What is mindset? IMHO, mindset is the conscious or subconscious willingness to commit harm against another. Anybody can train in a martial art, but how many have the mind and will to use their skills for killing or serious injury? How is the combative mindset developed? Culture, rearing, personality, moral upbringing, and the ability to suspend them when the need arises all play a role. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer for developing mindset or teaching one how to develop it. It requires a forceful commitment of the suspension of conditioned behavior, which can be activated consciously or subconsciously by the mental trigger that must be defined internally . You cannot force a student to fight and no amount of learned knowledge will matter if he will not morally accept the consequences of such an action.

 

[Rocky]

As you can tell business is real slow lately, so I am just hanging out on the computer lately.

Tgace Wrote:

How is the combative mindset developed? Culture, rearing, personality

I think all the above. I know for a fact though, because I have been around it all my life, full contact fighting will give most individuals a little edge or agressiveness and willingness to harm others with his hands, weapons especially blades are a different story.

I think this is a situation man kind has been pondering over for ever. You are a military person, look at how much energy the Marines put into trying to make their men agressive, this is the business they are in, yet they are never 100% sucessfull, in being able to ingrain this upon all recruits. I have a guy (Robert) right now that spent 8 years in the corp, very nice guy, like a little brother to me, he even made it to some special opts units , he is very smart, and an all around good guy. But when we work together I can just feel he doesn't have that ability to flip the switch, if you know what I mean. At the same time my best friend from 3rd grade (Todd) until graduation, joined the Marines and their training really worked on him, he came back from boot camp, with this I am a killer now mentality, told me my training in MA since I was 6 was nothing and that his training would distroy me. One thing lead to another, we got in a big fight he lost and I haven't seen or heard from him since 1984. So obviously Todd had a mindset that was easilly influence and not to hard to push over the edge. Robert on the other hand just saw it a job he was paid to do. Why these guys had the same type of training and ended up being so different is the million dollar Question.

I think you just keep plugging away, try to develop senarios and situation, and different way to help stimulate that mindset you are looking for.

You cannot force a student to fight and no amount of learned knowledge will matter if he will not morally accept the consequences of such an action.

Yep and you never will!!! Its a paradox you have to learn to live with if you are going to teach. You can only guide them you can't control them.

Rocky

 

[Tgace]

An interesting thought on "the fighting spirit" is sometning I read in the BushidoShoShinShu, it says that you can judge the courage and character of a person from his everyday attitude. Mindset is something you walk around with everyday, its not something to "turn on" when you walk into a dojo or wait untill your in a fight to discover. Its linked to that "condition yellow" awareness level. People are the "sum" of their life experience and training. The key is to try and form your life around some form of "code". It may sound "new age" but I call it "warriorship". Its not just hand-to-hand fighting but the philosophy of being prepared for anything that may arise. I was just talking to Paul on the phone yesterday and said "its like 3 GGM in the martial arts driving down a mountain road in a raging blizzard and their car breaks down. None of them have any knowledge of auto repair, cold weather survival, navigation etc. what is the practical use of their martial skills now???"

The quote I was refering to (edited for space)

"When speaking of Bushido, the three qualities considered essential are loyalty, integrity and courage. When these three virtues are perfectly combined in one man, he is called a samurai of the highest quality...The reason is that the courage of a warrior is not exhibited for the first time when he dons his armor, takes up spear and halberd, faces the field, and is locked in battle. A man's ordinary life at peace reflects his courage or cowardice just like a mirror...Having the least bit of spare time, he will put his mind to Learning, and not be negligent in his practice of the martial arts...He will protect his health fully and will keep in mind the desire to perform at least once in his life a great meritorious deed. Having such a disposition, he will be deeply mindful of his own constitution and be moderate in his desires for food and drink. He will give wide berth to and be very prudent in matters of sex, that primary deluder of men, and, other than that, will endure anything. All these evidence a man's courage."

 

[Rocky]

Sorry I can't quite agree that you always have to be 'on" i know this is not exactically what you said , but I'd rather be a person that can turn on as a situation calls, no grant it their are different levels in the on mode. a person must be carefull, there is a fine line between always being ready and Paranoia. But I think I pretty much agree with most of what you are saying.


As far as the Martial way according to the code of Budo, I would recommend being very carefull about how much stock you put into it.

When speaking of Bushido, the three qualities considered essential are loyalty, integrity and courage. When these three virtues are perfectly combined in one man, he is called a samurai of the highest quality

Remember many a Samurai, were brutal to those thay felt inferior, Pesants (sp) were often slaughtered, used and abused, yet there culture quite often thought it a privlage to be taken by a Samurai. This may be fine for there culture and of course as humans they are free to have there own culture.

I find this type of mentality barbaric and uncivilized even cowardice. So what may be integrity, courage and loyalty in one culture or to one person may be completely the opposite to another.

These philosophies and Writings weather they be of the oriental varity or even the Biblical varity, were often written by man as a guide to help the betterment of his fellow man, but it doesn't mean they are correct.

People are the "sum" of their life experience and training

Personally I think people are the sum of what they do with their life experiences and training.

At any rate, it is definately a tuff thing trying to condition a person to be totally ready for mortal combat. Cause everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die!!!!

Rocky

 

[Tgace]

Agreed..but just because the history of a martial culture dosent match up with the "code"that went with it dosent mean you discount that code. I wasnt holding up the Samurai as a model to emulate, but that dosent mean that there isnt valuable information to be gained from studying them. The history of Filipino Arts is rife with ambushes, murder and various other unsavory acts and personalities, but we find something valuable in them.

As to always being "on", like you said theres different levels of "on". You should never be out on the street daydreaming, but you shouldnt be punching out every person that walks by either. My previous post was trying to say that Martial Art should be a "lifestyle" and not just something you put on when you enter the dojo doors.

 

[loki09789]

I have gotten into hockey since my son has been playing. I picked up a book by a sport psych about the mental edge... it all looked like the stuff that you become aware of just being involved in Martial arts: Breathing exercises for relaxation and energy building, visualization, affirmation phrases (mantras/sutras)... packaged neatly under the heading of 'how to be the best hockey player you can be'.

The key point that ties this post to the topic at hand though is a comment by the managers, recruiters and coaches interviewed in the book. THey all said that a players character, integrity/work ethic were the pivotal factor in whether they would make it as an elite player. Skill and talent factored in, obviously, but how a person worked/acted on and off the ice was what would turn the decision maker's head. Tom's comment about the qualities of loyalty and such reminded me of this. THese will measure out differently based on culture, era and so on but I think it is interesting that the concept of personal quality is the common thread that connects elite status to any discipline.

This is a component of the 'everyday martial arts' practice that I emphasized. The basics of good training conduct/practices on the floor translate to everyday life. The other component is the translation of the training mindset/awareness to everyday life mindset. Noticing the details, the small things in technical progression is essential and it is essential to a quality life. Being attuned to the environment and the people around can enhance the quality of just the experience of living as well as help a person to be appropriately 'on' ( Color Code referenced) to avoid/defuse/defend against threats.

Martial arts or warriorship or what ever you call it to me is about taking in everything that you can because you never know how it will come in handy. At the very least, the learning process keeps the mind sharp. FMA conceptual learning really is great because it is a mental discipline that allows us to recognize patterns in things, thus we have the potential of learning things faster because we recognize processes and relationships instead of focusing entirely on the individual components.

Paul Martin

 

[mandirigma]

This is a fun thread, tgace.
It's not a self-defense class if you're not emphasizing mindset. I think it speaks very highly of a physical martial artist who takes the time to learn mindset. (Too many practitioners, for example, train the knife/stick but don't carry a folder or a baton... Willingness is a state of mind, readiness is a statement of fact.) Specifically, our understanding in the moment of confrontation is enhanced by using OODA to teach us the importance of seizing the agenda away from our attacker/s, using preprogrammed "tape loops" to manage conflict, and even physical things like lateral movement (off the line of force), etc.

More important is the insightful martialist's committment to tactical problem solving. That is, avoiding trouble at all costs. Most of self-defense work is done before and after physical intervention. The physicality of a confrontation is a mere snapshot of the overall self-defense picture. Much more important than fighting are the concepts: awareness; not being selected (staying under perps' radar); being deselected for victimization; deescalation tactics if selected; understanding the law (ability, opportunity, manifest intent, preclusion); resolution at the lowest force-level possible; and finally swift, decisive, overwhelming, problem-solving violence when necessary/appropriate. Further, dealing with the aftermath might take more thought than the confrontation itself, and it pays emotionally, financially and legally to have your actions preplanned and rehearsed.

I believe the foregoing must be included in a program claiming instruction in self-defense. Again, physical techniques are but a snapshot. Knowing the time and place for physical techniques is the responsible martialist's knack. Now entertain the dichotomy: this martial knowledge ultimately helps you live your life to the fullest. Rational warriors with an understanding of this paradox have a good chance of truly "claiming their magnificence" (or at least trying...grin).

Just my 2 cyber-cents. :asian:

"When the world is at peace, a gentleman keeps his sword by his side." -Wu Tsu

 

[Tgace]

Originally posted by mandirigma
More important is the insightful martialist's committment to tactical problem solving. That is, avoiding trouble at all costs. Most of self-defense work is done before and after physical intervention. The physicality of a confrontation is a mere snapshot of the overall self-defense picture.

Amen. Glad to hear from you. This reply reminds me of all those times people brag about how many bar fights theyve been in. I always tell them they need to find a new bar.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Tgace
All conflicts are duels between competitors. In these duels each competitor OBSERVES his opponent, ORIENTS himself to the opponent and the unfolding events, DECIDES on a course of action based on that orientation, training and experience, and finally ACTS out his decision.

This is the OODA Loop. Whoever can move through this process faster, gains the advantage over his foes by disrupting their ability to respond in a timely or effective manner. The Orientation portion of the cycle is the most important, and the weak point whereby an opponent may penetrate the decision cycle.

I just came into this thread. Interesting quote above. I did this when I was in karate competition although I described it differently. I went around two key points:

1. Observation - what do you actually observe (as opposed to what you either are predicting will happen or have preconceived)?
2. And then A) work against his weakness or B) work around my strength. It worked quite nicely for my competition career.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Rocky]

Mandirigma Wrote:

time to learn mindset. (Too many practitioners, for example, train the knife/stick but don't carry a folder or a baton... Willingness is a state of mind, readiness is a statement of fact.) Specifically, our understanding in the moment of confrontation is enhanced by using OODA to teach us the importance of seizing the agenda away from our attacker/s, using preprogrammed "tape loops" to manage conflict, and even physical things like lateral movement (off the line of force), etc.

And

More important is the insightful martialist's committment to tactical problem solving. That is, avoiding trouble at all costs. Most of self-defense work is done before and after physical intervention. The physicality of a confrontation is a mere snapshot of the overall self-defense picture. Much more important than fighting are the concepts: awareness; not being selected (staying under perps' radar); being deselected for victimization; deescalation tactics if selected; understanding the law (ability, opportunity, manifest intent, preclusion); resolution at the lowest force-level possible; and finally swift, decisive, overwhelming, problem-solving violence when necessary/appropriate. Further, dealing with the aftermath might take more thought than the confrontation itself, and it pays emotionally

Let me guess you are either in Law enforcement or wanna be in law enforcement.

While I agree with most everything everyone has posted here, it is important to remember one thing, the fancier (technical) you make the plumbing, the easier it is to plug up.

Much of the techno jargon, while it may be true and quite impressive when speaking to a newbe, is going to be very hard to teach, to a student that may only participate in one one hour class a week. Sure you can always teach the basics in a short class, like walking with your head up, don't look like a victim, don't put your self in bad situation, and blah blah blah. But to really develope the mind set to react with full commitment towards an agressor can take a very long time and may never be met buy some. So IMHO instead of trying to impress a student with all my facts, techno mambee jambee, statistics and what not. I perfer to keep it simple. 1. Observer (be aware of your suroundings) 2. Defend ( be loud, be agressive, utilize your strength and there weakness''s 3. Get the hell out of Dodge.

Of course this is for basic self defense, where teaching/training time is limited. Obviously each the 3 three goups I mentioned cand be added to, depending on a persons available time to train and learn.

Please don't take this as an insult or attack, its just that the things posted on this thread from all parties is nothing new, if you have been in the arts long enough, you will find any number of people that have developed very technical and pratical methods for developing the so called warrior mentality, Payton Quinn, Marc Mac Young, Sgt Joel Kirch 20 years ago as part of Defensive sytems international, a group I did some work with back in the 80's primarily LEO's. Hell, James Demile and Bruce Lee use to work the extream adreniline (sp) training and reaction back in the late 60's early 70's. It just seems to me that yes you can always benifit from all the super techno, informaion overload stuff, you just have keep it at a useable level for the individual.

The physical aspect of self defense only being a snapshot as you say is true, an oz of prevention so to say. But if I have only six one hour classes to teach someone self defense. I choose to divide most of that time into basic prevention and agressive self defense tactics, short simple and effective.


Tgace Wrote:

Amen. Glad to hear from you. This reply reminds me of all those times people brag about how many bar fights theyve been in. I always tell them they need to find a new bar

These are usually the guys that you don't have to worry about. Unfortunately the ones who have learned most of their fighting in a bar ( Like Tank Abott) will likely beat most martial artist silly. Of course if you use the all important concept of "Obsrvation" Like Tgace said in his intial post you probablly won't have to worry about running into someone like Tank Abott!!

I hope this post didn't get to far off base, or upset anyone, its just an excellent post started by Tgace and these are my opinions.

Rocky