Tactical Flashlight

[Psilent Knight]

Pocket clip.

I don't want a flashlight secured to my hand that a suspect can grab and use to control my arm.

I too would take a pocket clip over a lanyard if I had to choose. But I personally don't have anything against lanyards especially if the length of the flashlight makes it near impossible for a bad guy to get a good grasp of it and the good guy has sufficiently trained in weapon retention. Something I do agree with Juany118.

 

[Psilent Knight]

You hammer fist guys in the head with the hard bit. Not exactly rocket science.

It is where you get fancy that leads people into trouble in my opinion.

I agree with you that getting fancy is what lands people in hot water. I also prefer the hammer fist grip and hammer fist strike when using the tactical flashlight. I even agree that it's not rocket science.

BUT......

I do think a person should train in using their tactical light in combative situations. And they should train it often. Especially things such as rapid deployment before the poop hits the fan, rapid deployment under pressure (after the poop had already hit the fan), targeting, footwork, working angles, scenario training and of course weapon retention. We should keep in mind that the bad guy is not gonna just stand there and let us hammer fist the hell out of him. He will be moving, he will be fighting back. I don't want to develop a mindset that just because a hammer fist is physiologically pragmatic that it means it is automatically instinctive.

Juany,

We will agree to disagree then.

I prefer a normal tactical flashlight without the finger ring.

I too prefer a tactical flashlight with the finger ring. Especially since the tactical flashlight is a tactical flashlight and not a karambit. But I do see the value in the everyday experiences for the past 29 or 30 years @Juany118 talks about as a LEO. I do agree with him about the importance of training weapon retention and that the length of the flashlight (along with the aforementioned weapon retention abilities) make it problematic for the bad guy to gain control or possession of it.

Most important of all is the video he recently posted as a reminder to us all the purpose of a tactical light in this context. I like the idea of being able to strike with the flashlight but it's PRIMARY purpose is the disorientation factor under low lit conditions.

 

[drop bear]

I agree with you that getting fancy is what lands people in hot water. I also prefer the hammer fist grip and hammer fist strike when using the tactical flashlight. I even agree that it's not rocket science.

BUT......

I do think a person should train in using their tactical light in combative situations. And they should train it often. Especially things such as rapid deployment before the poop hits the fan, rapid deployment under pressure (after the poop had already hit the fan), targeting, footwork, working angles, scenario training and of course weapon retention. We should keep in mind that the bad guy is not gonna just stand there and let us hammer fist the hell out of him. He will be moving, he will be fighting back. I don't want to develop a mindset that just because a hammer fist is physiologically pragmatic that it means it is automatically instinctive.



I too prefer a tactical flashlight with the finger ring. Especially since the tactical flashlight is a tactical flashlight and not a karambit. But I do see the value in the everyday experiences for the past 29 or 30 years @Juany118 talks about as a LEO. I do agree with him about the importance of training weapon retention and that the length of the flashlight (along with the aforementioned weapon retention abilities) make it problematic for the bad guy to gain control or possession of it.

Most important of all is the video he recently posted as a reminder to us all the purpose of a tactical light in this context. I like the idea of being able to strike with the flashlight but it's PRIMARY purpose is the disorientation factor under low lit conditions.

I don't think the disorientation is really reliable. Having hit a few guys with the strobe on mine. I dont thing the strobe makes much difference either. Exept it can be a bit disorienting for you up close.

I still suggest the primary purpose of a tactical torch is to see trouble far enough away that you can avoid it.

 

[CB Jones]

I don't think the disorientation is really reliable. Having hit a few guys with the strobe on mine. I dont thing the strobe makes much difference either. Exept it can be a bit disorienting for you up close.

I still suggest the primary purpose of a tactical torch is to see trouble far enough away that you can avoid it.

I agree on the disorientation in my experience just a good bright flashlight that blinds the attacker/suspect and hides you works just as good if not better.

I don't see the strobe causing more disruption in the attackers OODA Loop.

Also, the idea of having to train flashlight retention seems a little pointless.

You took my flashlight....surprise my next flashlight has a Glock attached to it. Lol

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay the ring feature on the karambit is about retention. With a karambit a blade is attached to the handle. That blade is hard to grab and apply leverage to break the finger. Now, I am not saying it is impossible to leverage a karambit and break the holders finger just that it would be hard to do in a very dynamic situation. There are disarm techniques though that do this. The edged advantage of the karambit allows you to cut someone if they are grabbing your knife bearing hand provided you know what to do. Even if a karambit bearing hand is slashed or the person utilizing loses a finger or two they can still function with it as long as the finger in the ring is not cut off. You can even form a master grip on a handgun because of the size of a knife with most karambits and I have absolutely no problem functioning with a shotgun or long gun with a karambit in my off hand. This makes the karambit a very effective and efficient knife.


I think this is more about someone trying to come up with some thing that looks cool/fancy and has that shtick to sell to the masses. Hey, we invented the karambit tactical flashlight. Yay us! I do not think you need a retention ring on a tactical flashlight and because it is not a blade and you cannot cut your way out when interdicted. I don't see it as valuable. Just another schtick in a long line of someone trying to sell some thing. Not to mention that it would be possible to get your finger broken if your opponent gained control of the flashlight somehow.

No one disagrees with the advantage a tactical flashlight brings as a blinding agent and or a force multiplier. That is not what this conversation is about. I know that I simply would not be without one. Whether working or not. I can remember one instance when my family and I were at the Grand Canyon and after having a fancy meal at one of there restaurants we went outside and it was pitch black. Fortunately I had my light and we were able to avoid going off the path and falling to our deaths. My kid's were young at this time. The advantage of having a light is monumental in any low light situation.

We can also look at the usage of the ring/tactical flashlight in question and think about having to transition to another tool/weapon such as a long gun and the time if might take to get the ring feature off quickly to do so. It is not much fun to operate a long gun with a tactical flashlight in your off hand. Very, very challenging to do so if not just plain stupid. Your long gun/shot gun should have a mounted light. Much easier just to drop a tactical flashlight without the ring feature and transition to your long gun with a mounted light feature. I would also look at the use with a handgun you could certainly use the FBI method of use with a flashlight, you could also use Neck Index technique and the Harries Technique. You could not however use the Surefire technique to form the master grip on your firearm. If you wanted a solid master grip on your handgun you simply could not do it with this ring feature tactical flashlight due to the cylindrical nature of a tactical flashlight. You would again have to discard it which would take some more time to do so than if you had your non-ring feature tactical flashlight.

Tactical Flashlight Firearm Techniques

Handgun Master Grip

Possible broken finger if opponent gains control, slowed down in transitions to any other tool, Cannot grip long gun, shotgun or handgun with a master grip without getting rid of it. I'm just not seeing the advantage of this ring feature!

 

[CB Jones]

Okay the ring feature on the karambit is about retention. With a karambit a blade is attached to the handle. That blade is hard to grab and apply leverage to break the finger. Now, I am not saying it is impossible to leverage a karambit and break the holders finger just that it would be hard to do in a very dynamic situation. There are disarm techniques though that do this. The edged advantage of the karambit allows you to cut someone if they are grabbing your knife bearing hand provided you know what to do. Even if a karambit bearing hand is slashed or the person utilizing loses a finger or two they can still function with it as long as the finger in the ring is not cut off. You can even form a master grip on a handgun because of the size of a knife with most karambits and I have absolutely no problem functioning with a shotgun or long gun with a karambit in my off hand. This makes the karambit a very effective and efficient knife.


I think this is more about someone trying to come up with some thing that looks cool/fancy and has that shtick to sell to the masses. Hey, we invented the karambit tactical flashlight. Yay us! I do not think you need a retention ring on a tactical flashlight and because it is not a blade and you cannot cut your way out when interdicted. I don't see it as valuable. Just another schtick in a long line of someone trying to sell some thing. Not to mention that it would be possible to get your finger broken if your opponent gained control of the flashlight somehow.

No one disagrees with the advantage a tactical flashlight brings as a blinding agent and or a force multiplier. That is not what this conversation is about. I know that I simply would not be without one. Whether working or not. I can remember one instance when my family and I were at the Grand Canyon and after having a fancy meal at one of there restaurants we went outside and it was pitch black. Fortunately I had my light and we were able to avoid going off the path and falling to our deaths. My kid's were young at this time. The advantage of having a light is monumental in any low light situation.

We can also look at the usage of the ring/tactical flashlight in question and think about having to transition to another tool/weapon such as a long gun and the time if might take to get the ring feature off quickly to do so. It is not much fun to operate a long gun with a tactical flashlight in your off hand. Very, very challenging to do so if not just plain stupid. Your long gun/shot gun should have a mounted light. Much easier just to drop a tactical flashlight without the ring feature and transition to your long gun with a mounted light feature. I would also look at the use with a handgun you could certainly use the FBI method of use with a flashlight, you could also use Neck Index technique and the Harries Technique. You could not however use the Surefire technique to form the master grip on your firearm. If you wanted a solid master grip on your handgun you simply could not do it with this ring feature tactical flashlight due to the cylindrical nature of a tactical flashlight. You would again have to discard it which would take some more time to do so than if you had your non-ring feature tactical flashlight.

Tactical Flashlight Firearm Techniques

Handgun Master Grip

Possible broken finger if opponent gains control, slowed down in transitions to any other tool, Cannot grip long gun, shotgun or handgun with a master grip without getting rid of it. I'm just not seeing the advantage of this ring feature!

Also, would add that with a Karambit there is a reluctance to attempt to grab because of the danger of being cut.

There is a reluctance to grab a gun because of the danger of being shot.

Whereas there is no reluctance to grab your flashlight for fear of being illuminated. Your attacker can be much more aggressive toward the light that is being shined in his face.

 

[Juany118]

Juany,

We will agree to disagree then.

I prefer a normal tactical flashlight without the finger ring.

Fair enough . We all have preferred tools.

 

[CB Jones]

Fair enough . We all have preferred tools.

Absolutely. Hopefully it works for you.

Currently sitting in a opioids overdose training course about using Narcan.

Fentanyl......scary stuff.

Crazy that they are just now issuing Narcan to us to carry

 

[Juany118]

I agree on the disorientation in my experience just a good bright flashlight that blinds the attacker/suspect and hides you works just as good if not better.

I don't see the strobe causing more disruption in the attackers OODA Loop.

Also, the idea of having to train flashlight retention seems a little pointless.

You took my flashlight....surprise my next flashlight has a Glock attached to it. Lol

Well the reason for mentioning the light as a tool beyond illumination, imo, is for less lethal scenarios only. If you are in a position where you are prepared to destroy the target, and are legally permitted to do so, the blinding/disorientation of the flashlight seems redundant in my mind.

As for the results, there have been studies regarding the issues and whether you go from blinding to disorientation is based on two factors, 1. the lumens behind the light and 2. the flicker rate of the strobe. #2 is often missed because all flicker rates are not created equal. Here is a decent article on the topic Tactical Strobes | Torchguy | Online Shop.

Interestingly enough this effect was first noticed in the aviation sector and as I recall it resulted on the flicker rates of lights on aircraft being altered because of the potential disorienting effect of the lights. Heck there was an episode of Pokemon that caused seizures in children because of the flicker rate... The Banned Pokémon Episode That Gave Children Seizures

 

[Juany118]

Absolutely. Hopefully it works for you.

Currently sitting in a opioids overdose training course about using Narcan.

Fentanyl......scary stuff.

Crazy that they are just now issuing Narcan to us to carry

yeah, my town currently has the dubious distinction of the most Narcan saves by LEOs in the County.

 

[Psilent Knight]

I don't think the disorientation is really reliable. Having hit a few guys with the strobe on mine. I dont thing the strobe makes much difference either. Exept it can be a bit disorienting for you up close.

I still suggest the primary purpose of a tactical torch is to see trouble far enough away that you can avoid it.

I don't bother with the strobe feature on my flashlight either. I'm basically not sold on the strobe feature. I keep my light set on high mode. I only bother with the low setting around the house when using it to look for stuff. And the strobe setting I don't deal with at all.

As far as the disorientation or momentary blindness factor, well I am sold on that. I think a sudden and unexpected flash of 500 lumens of light right directly in the face of someone with night adapted vision is something not to be overlooked or underestimated. I've accidentally shined it in my own face (at 500 lumens) in my house, during the daytime with the bedroom light on. And...well.Trust me! Just, you know, trust me on this one.

 

[Psilent Knight]

As for the results, there have been studies regarding the issues and whether you go from blinding to disorientation is based on two factors, 1. the lumens behind the light and 2. the flicker rate of the strobe. #2 is often missed because all flicker rates are not created equal.

While I do believe the studies that I have personally read myself and agree that the strobe can possibly disorient a bad guy, I'm just not sold on it being the unstoppable light setting to use against the bad guy that it's being marketed as. I think a steady light would be much better for the job than strobing someone. (Hey, is strobing a word? )

Two issues that I have in particular with the strobe feature are 1) depending on your surroundings when the strobe is operated, the person with the flashlight may also be affected by the strobe light. This is not what we want. And 2) just like the strobe light makes it difficult for the bad guy to notice the smallest movements you make, you (as the holder of the flashlight) can also miss subtle movements that he makes. That is, if you're somewhere that brings issue #1 into play when you use it. Again, something to always be avoided. In a self defense situation I want to maximize my chances of surviving with little to no harm while minimizing the bad guy's chances of doing the same.

 

[Buka]

Whereas there is no reluctance to grab your flashlight for fear of being illuminated.

That's a great line.

 

[drop bear]

What people who make disorienting light and sound weapons do not understand about the people they are intending to use them on.

 

[Psilent Knight]

What people who make disorienting light and sound weapons do not understand about the people they are intending to use them on.

No comparison. Two completely different animals.

 

[Paul_D]

Whereas there is no reluctance to grab your flashlight for fear of being illuminated. Your attacker can be much more aggressive toward the light that is being shined in his face.

However, he can grab a knife or a gun becasue he can see it, whereas if you are shining your light in his eyes is he going to be abel to see well enough to grab the torch?

 

[CB Jones]

However, he can grab a knife or a gun becasue he can see it, whereas if you are shining your light in his eyes is he going to be abel to see well enough to grab the torch?

Yes.

Police have been shining flashlights in suspects eyes for decades and have still found themselves being attacked.

Light creates a poor barrier against someone rushing you and the source of the light makes for a good target.

 

[Blindside]

Several people have brought up the potential negatives of the ring if the opponent gets close enough to you to attempt a disarm. How many people here have actually tried to disarm a kerambit from someone who doesn't want you to take it? It is nearly freaking impossible, the blade isn't in a good position to get leverage off of it and it will require really really solid control of the arm and hand of that guy. I have never succeeded in training and I train for and against kerambits more than your average bear.

The flashlight is not a kerambit, I totally get that, but the difficulties on the disarm are similar, you don't have a long lever to work with and to get a disarm will require you isolate my hand arm to get the flashlight free. If you want to waste that much of your time and defensive resources on a non-lethal threat device, that seems like a bad allocation. Because while you are trying to isolate that flashlight my other hand is freed up to do whatever, this may be a worthwhile trade if the weapon is a gun or a knife or a light saber, but it isn't if it is a flashlight. If you get that close to the guy wrap up the arm and beat on him. The finger ring only comes into play as a liability if the other guys gets a disarm, and disarms are haaaard to get.

As for light as illumination and a distraction, I don't think anyone says that it will stop a person, that would be silly. It is distracting and causes people to not focus directly toward the guy with a flashlight. I have seen two Dog Brothers matches where people pulled tactical flashlights and tried to use them. These are brightly lit rooms or outside in the sun, wearing masks which block some percentage of incoming light, and with people who are highly motivated to hit each other. One guy said it was annoying but not really a factor, the other guy couldn't look directly in the direction of the light and had to focus off to the sides. That second is a pretty worthwhile advantage, it won't stop an attack but if you can't guage range well, that is certainly an advantage.

 

[CB Jones]

Several people have brought up the potential negatives of the ring if the opponent gets close enough to you to attempt a disarm. How many people here have actually tried to disarm a kerambit from someone who doesn't want you to take it? It is nearly freaking impossible, the blade isn't in a good position to get leverage off of it and it will require really really solid control of the arm and hand of that guy. I have never succeeded in training and I train for and against kerambits more than your average bear.

The flashlight is not a kerambit, I totally get that, but the difficulties on the disarm are similar, you don't have a long lever to work with and to get a disarm will require you isolate my hand arm to get the flashlight free. If you want to waste that much of your time and defensive resources on a non-lethal threat device, that seems like a bad allocation. Because while you are trying to isolate that flashlight my other hand is freed up to do whatever, this may be a worthwhile trade if the weapon is a gun or a knife or a light saber, but it isn't if it is a flashlight. If you get that close to the guy wrap up the arm and beat on him. The finger ring only comes into play as a liability if the other guys gets a disarm, and disarms are haaaard to get.

As for light as illumination and a distraction, I don't think anyone says that it will stop a person, that would be silly. It is distracting and causes people to not focus directly toward the guy with a flashlight. I have seen two Dog Brothers matches where people pulled tactical flashlights and tried to use them. These are brightly lit rooms or outside in the sun, wearing masks which block some percentage of incoming light, and with people who are highly motivated to hit each other. One guy said it was annoying but not really a factor, the other guy couldn't look directly in the direction of the light and had to focus off to the sides. That second is a pretty worthwhile advantage, it won't stop an attack but if you can't guage range well, that is certainly an advantage.

I get what you are saying Blindside....but what is the reward that outweighs the risk of having that finger loop?

I would like the light if it was minus the finger loop. The finger loop just adds a risk that isn't needed.

If someone is wanting to disarm me from the flashlight why do I want a flashlight I have to fight to retain?

 

[Blindside]

I get what you are saying Blindside....but what is the reward that outweighs the risk of having that finger loop?

I would like the light if it was minus the finger loop. The finger loop just adds a risk that isn't needed.

If someone is wanting to disarm me from the flashlight why do I want a flashlight I have to fight to retain?

I think the risk of being disarmed is so low that the risk of the fingerloop being harmful is essentially immaterial. I wouldn't drive my car I was worried about probabilities that low.