Style Bashing

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is "style bashing"?

If you say that:

- boxers don't train kick.
- Judo guys don't train no-jacket wrestling.
- BJJ guys don't train one against many.
- Chinese wrestlers don't train ground skill.
- ...

Is that "style bashing"? Under this heavy title of "style bashing", we may afraid to discuss many MA subjects.

When someone said,

- "Chinese wrestlers don't train ground skill."
- "Long fist guys don't train flying knee."

I don't treat it as "style bashing". I treat it as "mention a fact".

What's your opponent on this?

 

[skribs]

This depends a lot on intent and tone. While it's hard to get both online, you can usually get the jist through context.

"Boxers have great punches, but they don't have kicks. If you want a well-rounded striking game, you should add something with kicks, like kickboxing or Muay Thai."
"Boxer's cant do anything but punch, Muay Thai has everything."

Notice the difference between these two? The first one acknowledges the punching skill you will learn in boxing, but offers ways to improve if you want to know how to do more. The second just assumes that Muay Thai is objectively better than boxing because it has more than just punches.

All of it is competitiveness between martial arts. Competition can be a good or a bad thing.

There's a guy in my BJJ gym who was around my size when we started (but he's lost a lot of weight since then). He and I started around the same time, are both regularly in attendance, and both do a lot of research outside of class. We're roughly an even match for each other. We enjoy drilling together, we enjoy chatting before and after class. When we roll, it's usually 50/50. He's the guy in class that I test myself against. Not the new 100-pound teenager. Not the guy built like a basketball player. But the guy that I'm usually 50/50 with. I test myself against him, he tests himself against me, and whenever either of us does anything cool, the other says, "That was awesome, show me how you did that!"

This is a good rivalry, good competition, because we push ourselves to be better, and we have a stronger relationship for it. But instead, let's assume that I did one or both of:

• Whenever he beats me, I get frustrated. I call him names to take out my anger on him. I either do the most painful technique I know out of revenge, or I just get so lost in the emotion that I get beat even easier, and it's a downward spiral.
• Whenever I beat him, I gloat. I call him names. I brag to everyone that I tapped him out. I make sure everyone knows how great I am and how bad he is because I beat him!

In that case, I'm either a sore loser or a sore winner (or both). It wouldn't help my training. It wouldn't help his training. He wouldn't want to train with me.

If I were to say to you that "Kung Fu is stupid", or talk in such a way that you inferred as such, I'm sure you wouldn't want to talk to me about Kung Fu. You might want to argue with me. But not talk. And that argument wouldn't be productive.

However, if we were to discuss the differences between Kung Fu and Taekwondo and what we can learn from each other as a result, that would make a lot of sense.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What is "style bashing"?

If you say that:

- boxers don't train kick.
- Judo guys don't train no-jacket wrestling.
- BJJ guys don't train one against many.
- Chinese wrestlers don't train ground skill.
- ...

Is that "style bashing"? Under this heavy title of "style bashing", we may afraid to discuss many MA subjects.

When someone said,

- "Chinese wrestlers don't train ground skill."
- "Long fist guys don't train flying knee."

I don't treat it as "style bashing". I treat it as "mention a fact".

What's your opponent on this?

Too many people use the "I'm just stating facts" argument to be rude.

They will say, "Your style sucks. Hey, just stating facts."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What is "style bashing"?

If you say that:

- boxers don't train kick.
- Judo guys don't train no-jacket wrestling.
- BJJ guys don't train one against many.
- Chinese wrestlers don't train ground skill.
- ...

Is that "style bashing"? Under this heavy title of "style bashing", we may afraid to discuss many MA subjects.

When someone said,

- "Chinese wrestlers don't train ground skill."
- "Long fist guys don't train flying knee."

I don't treat it as "style bashing". I treat it as "mention a fact".

What's your opponent on this?

To me, it's about the context. To say most Judo places don't train no-gi is accurate. To say Judo sucks because they don't is style bashing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If someone says, "Chinese wrestling has no ground skill." I will say, "I agree with you 100% on this." May be not everybody can admit the weakness of his own MA system.

One time someone did a Taij "brush knee twist step". I suggested him that after he blocks his opponent's kick with his left arm, if he uses his right leg to hook his opponent's standing leg, he can take his opponent down instead of pushing his opponent back. He didn't have to change anything with his upper body movement. He just need to add into "leg skill". A "push (or strike)" then becomes a "throw".

That person treated my comment as bashing to his Taiji system. IMO, Taiji + leg skill can add more value into the Taiji system.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Bashing is defined as a violent physical assault or severe criticism

So, IMO, by definition "Style Bashing:" Is to severely criticize a style

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think style bashing is just a term people use to belittle and present an opportunity to present another martial arts as being inferior to other systems or to just take the long route to say "your system sucks"

If the point of your argument or claims was so that you can have proof to say "your system sucks" then you are probably style bashing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If someone says, "Chinese wrestling has no ground skill." I will say, "I agree with you 100% on this." May be not everybody can admit the weakness of his own MA system.

I wouldn't call this a weakness though. Here's why.
1. Because I don't have ground skill doesn't mean that I'm easy to put on the ground.

2. Because I have ground skills, doesn't mean that I should be on the ground when confronted with 2 vs 1 scenarios.

Context is everything. Environment is everything. You may be in a situation where having good ground fighting skills aren't going to be the advantage. No matter what the fighter does, he will still have to pick the best skill set for the environment that he's fighting in.

Me vs BJJ in the park. BJJ guy wants to fight on the grass. Me? I reject because I know that will give him an advantage for his strength. I want to fight on the pavement, because I know that it will give me an advantage for my strength.

There is no skill set that is good everywhere. Fight in a swimming pool. I can only say you better be skilled at holding your breath.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I wouldn't call this a weakness though. Here's why.
1. Because I don't have ground skill doesn't mean that I'm easy to put on the ground.

Sometime the environment can put restriction on you.

One time my Chinese wrestling teacher got into a fight in a tight office space against 6 guys. He had to use his striking skill, he could not use his wrestling skill.

In other words, to suggest a wrestler to train striking (or the other way around) should not be style bashing. It's just to suggest that something is missing in what one already has.

It will be nice that your handgun can fire both in the air and also under water. So to say that your handgun cannot fire under water is not bashing your handgun.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If someone says, "Chinese wrestling has no ground skill." I will say, "I agree with you 100% on this." May be not everybody can admit the weakness of his own MA system.

One time someone did a Taij "brush knee twist step". I suggested him that after he blocks his opponent's kick with his left arm, if he uses his right leg to hook his opponent's standing leg, he can take his opponent down instead of pushing his opponent back. He didn't have to change anything with his upper body movement. He just need to add into "leg skill". A "push (or strike)" then becomes a "throw".

That person treated my comment as bashing to his Taiji system. IMO, Taiji + leg skill can add more value into the Taiji system.

He may not know or train martial arts application for it. My guess is that he probably didn't understand what you were saying because you were thinking martial art application.

I'm only guessing because of how he was explaining the application of what he was doing. It didn't sound the same as it would if someone was actually training the system for fighting application.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If someone says, "Chinese wrestling has no ground skill." I will say, "I agree with you 100% on this." May be not everybody can admit the weakness of his own MA system.

One time someone did a Taij "brush knee twist step". I suggested him that after he blocks his opponent's kick with his left arm, if he uses his right leg to hook his opponent's standing leg, he can take his opponent down instead of pushing his opponent back. He didn't have to change anything with his upper body movement. He just need to add into "leg skill". A "push (or strike)" then becomes a "throw".

That person treated my comment as bashing to his Taiji system. IMO, Taiji + leg skill can add more value into the Taiji system.

I think his partner may have a different perception of your comment. She seems to be more into the actual use of techniques.

 

[Anarax]

I think there's a rather large difference between bashing and criticizing. It can usually be divided between an inexperienced emotional(bashing) perspective or a technical analysis/breakdown of the limitations/issues of said style. There's not a single martial art that doesn't have limitation(s) nor do I think any of them are approve criticism. The other side of the issue is when practitioners of different arts refuse to acknowledge any/all criticism of their art, even from those that have experience with it. Emotions on one or both sides makes it more difficult to have productive discussions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He may not know or train martial arts application for it. My guess is that he probably didn't understand what you were saying because you were thinking martial art application.

I'm only guessing because of how he was explaining the application of what he was doing. It didn't sound the same as it would if someone was actually training the system for fighting application.

This is the problem. When A talks about MA application and B talks about self-cultivation (even today, I still don't know the meaning of that). It's like a chicken talk to a duck. It also likes trying to explain what ice is to a bug that only lives through the summertime.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think there's a rather large difference between bashing and criticizing.

Agree! There is also a large difference between criticizing and suggestion.

One time, someone did this (I could not understand the application of this - both hands face down).



I suggest him to consider this (the upper palm control the elbow and the downward palm control the wrist).



He though I tried to criticize his Taiji but I just tried to suggest. I was talking about application. He was talking about self-cultivation (he can't care less about application).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Me vs BJJ in the park. BJJ guy wants to fight on the grass. Me? I reject because I know that will give him an advantage for his strength. I want to fight on the pavement, because I know that it will give me an advantage for my strength.

Bit of a misconception there. For friendly sparring, a grappler might prefer to go on the grass so that you can take the match to the ground without someone getting hurt. For a real fight, the pavement is absolutely to the advantage of the person who is better at takedowns and getting on top if the fight goes to the ground.

 

[skribs]

I think there's a rather large difference between bashing and criticizing. It can usually be divided between an inexperienced emotional(bashing) perspective or a technical analysis/breakdown of the limitations/issues of said style. There's not a single martial art that doesn't have limitation(s) nor do I think any of them are approve criticism. The other side of the issue is when practitioners of different arts refuse to acknowledge any/all criticism of their art, even from those that have experience with it. Emotions on one or both sides makes it more difficult to have productive discussions.

I used to look down on MMA fighters for having "crappy" kicks. I didn't really go around and publicly bash them. However, I watched UFC fighters doing leg kicks, and my thought process as an orange belt in Taekwondo is, "Those kicks are horrible. There's no chamber, they can't even kick above the waist. The beginners in my TKD school are better than these pro fighters."

Taekwondo doesn't really include leg kicks (except for some outliers). TKD competitions require kicks above the belt, and the vast majority of my kicking training and sparring training was within line with those rules. Since then, I've altered my opinion on MMA kicks. But that's because I have more experience in variations of technique and more exposure to other styles.

It's not that I had an emotional response when watching the UFC match. It's that I had been told for the last several months to chamber my kick and kick above the waist. To me, that was the correct way of doing things.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I used to look down on MMA fighters for having "crappy" kicks. ... they can't even kick above the waist.

Both MMA and Sanda allow leg catching. That change the kicking game.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For a real fight, the pavement is absolutely to the advantage of the person who is better at takedowns ...

To let the earth to punch on your opponent's head is a good finish move.

 

[drop bear]

I think style bashing is just a term people use to belittle and present an opportunity to present another martial arts as being inferior to other systems or to just take the long route to say "your system sucks"

If the point of your argument or claims was so that you can have proof to say "your system sucks" then you are probably style bashing.

Isn't suggesting that no styles suck also style bashing?

Because you are dragging down the performance of those styles that have put the effort in to be good.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

inferior to other systems ...

I will not say "inferior". Instead, I will say "missing".

For example, the long fist system is not inferior in flying knee compare to other MA systems. The long fist system is missing the flying knee.

People may say. "I don't need flying knee in my MA system." But that does change the fact that "his MA system is missing flying knee".

IMO, to say, "Your MA system is missing ..." It should not be treated as style bashing.