Stupid questions re: back hand knife-hand blocks

[Little_Shoto]

or as I have heard ...they are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask questions.

1) What is the primary purpose of the back-hand knife hand block? (I know it's a block ..but it it to block a punch?)

2) If it used much in tournement/real life situations?


I know, I know ...I'm a noobie. I know nothing, so that's why I am asking. I asked my sensei and he gave me a long winded response that put me to sleep. lol

 

[arnisador]

I've seen it used as a joint lock--catch the inside of the wrist with the "block" then use the other hand, that's pulling back, to catch the elbow and make a lock.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Little_Shoto
or as I have heard ...they are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask questions.

1) What is the primary purpose of the back-hand knife hand block? (I know it's a block ..but it it to block a punch?)

2) If it used much in tournement/real life situations?


I know, I know ...I'm a noobie. I know nothing, so that's why I am asking. I asked my sensei and he gave me a long winded response that put me to sleep. lol

Depending on your art and the kata being practiced it may vary.

I say its a blocking a straight punch and it also doubles as a strike. A shoto block and strike are related in the sense that the movements are very close to being the same. The differances with the strike would be your angle of attack, like horizontal versus vertical.

I really would use the lead hand for a knife hand block.

If you were to look at a knife hand block from differant arts you may see a differant range of movement.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by arnisador
I've seen it used as a joint lock--catch the inside of the wrist with the "block" then use the other hand, that's pulling back, to catch the elbow and make a lock.

So if he's in a left lead and I'm in a right lead. And he throws left punch. I block with my left rear hand, catch his left wrist with my left hand, trap his left elbow with my right hand. Lock his arm by pushing down ( I prefer to use my forearm at this point) at the elbow while controlling his left wrist, pulling it up. Either breaking his arm or taking him face first to the ground.

Is that something like what you were talking about?

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Little_Shoto
or as I have heard ...they are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask questions.

1) What is the primary purpose of the back-hand knife hand block? (I know it's a block ..but it it to block a punch?)

2) If it used much in tournement/real life situations?


I know, I know ...I'm a noobie. I know nothing, so that's why I am asking. I asked my sensei and he gave me a long winded response that put me to sleep. lol

As others have mentioned, just because it's called a "block" doesn't mean that it's only a block.

It can be a strike, a block, a joint lock, a disarm, a throw (projectile weapon), a takedown.

As a "block", it would work well against a hook, but it'll be a strike into the bicep area of the hooking arm.

It would also work to "cut the line" of an incoming straight punch so that you shunt the punch off to the side and your "block" becomes, for instance, an eye jab.

Mike

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Little_Shoto
1) What is the primary purpose of the back-hand knife hand block? (I know it's a block ..but it it to block a punch?)

You would really need to describe the technique a little better. I think we all can understand what you are probably trying to describe, but it would level the playing field more evenly if you described what you were doing in more detail...

2) If it used much in tournement/real life situations?

Everything can be used in tournament and/or real life situations. There is little that is contained in authentic, living, "real" martial arts that is not directly applicable to a "real life" situation, whether fighting is involved or not...

I know, I know ...I'm a noobie. I know nothing, so that's why I am asking. I asked my sensei and he gave me a long winded response that put me to sleep. lol

Here's where the Old Fart wags his finger at the Newbie.

Since you are a self-described newbie, and none of us seem to be intimately familiar with your school or teacher, you should rely not so much on the opinions of others outside your school who provide answers via internet communication, but rather listen attentively to the person you are studying under. It would seem to me that, long winded or not, your teacher would know more about what you are supposed to be learning than we would.

Secondly, making such a comment is, in a very real sense, completly disrespectful. You shouldn't be obedient and respectful because you are learning some mystical, magical, exotic art, but because this person has taken on the role of providing you with instruction. Rather than paying attention to his explanation and direction, you instead come here in search of a second opinion...

Naughty Little Shoto! :miffer:

I understand wanting to come here and ask questions. But you should look and listen at the source before exploring what others think is more appropriate.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by akja
So if he's in a left lead and I'm in a right lead. And he throws left punch. I block with my left rear hand, catch his left wrist with my left hand, trap his left elbow with my right hand. Lock his arm by pushing down ( I prefer to use my forearm at this point) at the elbow while controlling his left wrist, pulling it up. Either breaking his arm or taking him face first to the ground.

Is that something like what you were talking about?

Here's the version I was thinking of: He's in a right lead and throws a right punch. You in a left lead block with your left in a knife-hand formation, then grab the wrist. Your right hand then comes out, palm up, and grabs his right elbow on the underside. You then push with your left and pull with your right to lock the arm, his right hand going back toward his rear side while the elbow comes forward. This is a possible application for the knife-hand block that you see done with the non-blocking hand retracting as part of the block.

It may look a bit funny as described but you can take the idea and make it work--as described it's a bit too much this step, then this step, then this step, but it's hard in this medium.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
Here's the version I was thinking of: He's in a right lead and throws a right punch. You in a left lead block with your left in a knife-hand formation, then grab the wrist. Your right hand then comes out, palm up, and grabs his right elbow on the underside. You then push with your left and pull with your right to lock the arm, his right hand going back toward his rear side while the elbow comes forward. This is a possible application for the knife-hand block that you see done with the non-blocking hand retracting as part of the block.

It may look a bit funny as described but you can take the idea and make it work--as described it's a bit too much this step, then this step, then this step, but it's hard in this medium.

I think you have it, yet I know what you are trying to discuss.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by arnisador
Here's the version I was thinking of: He's in a right lead and throws a right punch. You in a left lead block with your left in a knife-hand formation, then grab the wrist. Your right hand then comes out, palm up, and grabs his right elbow on the underside. You then push with your left and pull with your right to lock the arm, his right hand going back toward his rear side while the elbow comes forward. This is a possible application for the knife-hand block that you see done with the non-blocking hand retracting as part of the block.

It may look a bit funny as described but you can take the idea and make it work--as described it's a bit too much this step, then this step, then this step, but it's hard in this medium.

Actually yours is closer to the way I would use it. I used the rear shoto because the original question was of a rear knife hand block.

My way is similar to yours but I use my lead hand to stop or intercept the punch and then simultaneously use my rear hand to take the outside wrist of the punch and my lead forearm rides the punching arm to the elbow.

Having control of his punchers wrist and my forearm staying contact with the punching arm leaves you in a desirable controlling position to finish roughly or just subdue.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by akja
Actually yours is closer to the way I would use it. I used the rear shoto because the original question was of a rear knife hand block.

My way is similar to yours but I use my lead hand to stop or intercept the punch and then simultaneously use my rear hand to take the outside wrist of the punch and my lead forearm rides the punching arm to the elbow.

Having control of his punchers wrist and my forearm staying contact with the punching arm leaves you in a desirable controlling position to finish roughly or just subdue.

I tried to add this pic after the fact but I had to put it separate.

 

[Little_Shoto]

Yiliquan1, I understand your post, but I have to respectfully disagree with your rebuke.

Everyone learns in a different way. Some are more visual, some are more verbal, some need both.

On the same note, everyone teaches in there own way.

I don't always connect with my sensei's teaching methods, but I am still learning from him, and that is why I am still there, but I can definately see that I will not be there for 20 years. I do not view him as some sort of god. I've seen him make too many mistakes for that.

I am a noobie when it comes to the martial arts, yes, but not when it comes to life. The tire around my middle and the grey hairs on my head will attest to that.



Now onto the main subject: I made a mistake in my description of the movement. It is a back STANCE knife hand block.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Little_Shoto
Yiliquan1, I understand your post, but I have to respectfully disagree with your rebuke.

Everyone learns in a different way. Some are more visual, some are more verbal, some need both.

On the same note, everyone teaches in there own way.

I don't always connect with my sensei's teaching methods, but I am still learning from him, and that is why I am still there, but I can definately see that I will not be there for 20 years. I do not view him as some sort of god. I've seen him make too many mistakes for that.

I am a noobie when it comes to the martial arts, yes, but not when it comes to life. The tire around my middle and the grey hairs on my head will attest to that.



Now onto the main subject: I made a mistake in my description of the movement. It is a back STANCE knife hand block.

Back stance with a knife hand block from the "lead hand?"

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Little_Shoto
Yiliquan1, I understand your post, but I have to respectfully disagree with your rebuke.

Well, nobody said you had to agree with it, and somehow I didn't expect you to anyway.

Everyone learns in a different way. Some are more visual, some are more verbal, some need both.

I agree. It becomes the job of the teacher to discover what method works. It is the hallmark of a great teacher that he/she knows and is able to present material in a fashion that will allow everyone to learn.

On the same note, everyone teaches in there own way.

I agree again. See above reply.

I don't always connect with my sensei's teaching methods, but I am still learning from him, and that is why I am still there, but I can definately see that I will not be there for 20 years. I do not view him as some sort of god. I've seen him make too many mistakes for that.

Perhaps. I can understand that. However you are there now, and regardless of what "mistakes" you have seen him perform, he is still the one you should go to for the authoritative breakdown of what he is teaching you. Unless we on MT are attending your classes as well, it is nearly impossible for us to provide any information that is necessarily beneficial to your training.

I am a noobie when it comes to the martial arts, yes, but not when it comes to life. The tire around my middle and the grey hairs on my head will attest to that.

That may be, but it doesn't provide you with carte blanche to do as you feel is amenable to you. There is an old karate saying that you first fit yourself to the style, and later fit the style to suit you. You are putting the cart before the horse and attempting to do things your own way. Far too many people think that everything has to fit them in order for things to go correctly. Perhaps you should put out a little more effort to understand how your teacher is trying to convey information. It is entirely possible that the method of his instruction is every bit as important as the information he is providing. I know that when I teach, I fit the lesson to the student, and sometimes what I am telling them is not so important as how I am telling them...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Don't think in straight lines...

The block is more a way of connecting with the attacker and a way to begin to control the action...

Don't move straight back into your back stance with the block...move at an angle...also, don't assume that the attack is coming straight at you...you may have missed a "hidden" pivot.

Look beyond the obvious...because in this case, the obvious may not be very effective.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by chufeng
Look beyond the obvious...because in this case, the obvious may not be very effective.

Yes, to be honest I don't really think very highly of the application I described.

Attending a few of George Dillman's seminars really opened up my eyes as to interpreting the kata. He has some good ideas. Unfortunately it seems not to be as heavily emphasized in his seminars these days but his books may provide pointers.

 

[Old Warrior]

1) What is the primary purpose of the back-hand knife hand block?

Primary purpose is to block a strike at head or upper chest level.

It is particularly well suited to close in self defense where arms are held folded across the chest in a non aggressive posture. If the left is the blocking hand and a strike is imminent, one would hold the hand to the left of the face as if scratching your right ear. I cannot think of a faster or more sure block.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by chufeng
Don't think in straight lines...

The block is more a way of connecting with the attacker and a way to begin to control the action...

Don't move straight back into your back stance with the block...move at an angle...also, don't assume that the attack is coming straight at you...you may have missed a "hidden" pivot.

Look beyond the obvious...because in this case, the obvious may not be very effective.

:asian:
chufeng

So how do you move your feet? From a right lead? From a left lead? When you execute where are your feet in comparison from your starting point?

 

[chufeng]

It depends on the attacker's intent...I let the attacker's action move me...sometimes I step at an angle 45 degrees to his attack, sometimes I pivot and do a 90 degree or 180 degree turn, sometimes I stand my ground and the knife hand block is actually a counter attack...it depends...I think my training partners will attest to the fact that I rarely execute the same technique twice in response to any given attack.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by akja
So how do you move your feet?

Forward and backward...

From a right lead? From a left lead?

Sometimes the right moves first (forward or back), and sometimes the left moves first (forward or back)...

When you execute where are your feet in comparison from your starting point?

Usually at the end of my legs...

Seriously, though, how do you mean? Ultimately, and I think everyone would agree, regardless of footwork patterns and stepping methods, you step to enable you to strike/kick/grapple the bad guy.

When I move, the opponent's action dictates my response. His size dictates the distance I need to move. His attack dictates the nature of my response. Hard to go into real detail unless you outline a particular "for instance" situation.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Forward and backward...



Sometimes the right moves first (forward or back), and sometimes the left moves first (forward or back)...



Usually at the end of my legs...

Seriously, though, how do you mean? Ultimately, and I think everyone would agree, regardless of footwork patterns and stepping methods, you step to enable you to strike/kick/grapple the bad guy.

When I move, the opponent's action dictates my response. His size dictates the distance I need to move. His attack dictates the nature of my response. Hard to go into real detail unless you outline a particular "for instance" situation.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

If we forget the technique, and you are teaching someone new your footwork.

What is your approach to the "new" student and what is the "goal" for them to reach as far as being able to move by letting the aggressor dictate their reactions.