Straight sword and fencing

[KnightlyMongoose]

Chinese straight sword use seems practically identical to fencing, in general application at least. I was wondering if anyone both fenced and did CMA and had any insights into the weapons similarities and differences. This might be a bit of a dangerous topic, especially noting some of the things that ended up being said in other sword vs sword topics on this forum. So I would just like to cover my *** and mention right off the bat that I do realize there are some big differences between the two, its just that compared to other western vs eastern weapons they seem quite similar.

 

[Steel Tiger]

At a fundamental level there is not that much different about the two methods. The same elements of the sword are used in the same way, essential footwork is similar. The thing that stands out for me is that fencing is more compact, like it was designed for fighting in narrow corridors, jian fighting has larger movements designed to generate speed and power in the foible.

Like many combative methods from Europe fencing has the appearance of having been pared down to the minimum requirements (its not true, there is plenty of depth in fencing). Jian, on the other hand, looks as complex as it is. This is just perception, the realities are that there is not a lot of difference between the two.

 

[Flying Crane]

In my experience, I feel they are pretty different.

I had a semester of foil in college, so I cannot speak for the epee nor saber used in western fencing. My Chinese sword practice is mostly Chen and Yang tai chi, altho I have a bit of external wudang sword as well, and a two-handed straight sword set.

The foil is all about stabbing, while the jian has a workable edge as well as a sharp point. Sure, there are some occasional similarities, but overall I'd say they are quite different. Stances are very different, footwork is very different, defensive postures are mostly different. Jian has a larger body of techniques with more variation than foil.

If you look hard enough, you can always find similarities. But overall I feel they are not very similar.

 

[thardey]

In my experience, I feel they are pretty different.

I had a semester of foil in college, so I cannot speak for the epee nor saber used in western fencing. My Chinese sword practice is mostly Chen and Yang tai chi, altho I have a bit of external wudang sword as well, and a two-handed straight sword set.

The foil is all about stabbing, while the jian has a workable edge as well as a sharp point. Sure, there are some occasional similarities, but overall I'd say they are quite different. Stances are very different, footwork is very different, defensive postures are mostly different. Jian has a larger body of techniques with more variation than foil.

If you look hard enough, you can always find similarities. But overall I feel they are not very similar.

The foil is such a modern version of "fencing" that it is hard to use that as a comparison to a lethal Chinese alternative. As far as I know, there is no Chinese version of a foil. (The foil was based on "smallsword" techniques -- not rapier or side-sword.)

The hard part about this question is that there are many, many different styles of historical fencing, plus the modern counterparts of foil, epee, and saber. But the kicker is that for each style, either the style was built around the limitations of the weapon, and the quality of steel which limited its size and weight, or the sword was built around the style later, when metallurgy allowed that.

The "Rapier" changed a lot over time, from the cut-and-thrust broadsword (Almost a Oakeshott type XV with a knuckleguard attached) at one end of the spectrum (Similar to what you would see from Marozzo), to the 4-foot long monstrosities you would sometimes see the in the Spanish styles, to the short, flimsy smallswords, to the point-only epees used for "first blood" duels.

Marozzo, Thibault, Saviolo, Silver, Fabris, Agrippa, Capoferro, Alfieri, di Grassi, Carranza, Distreza, and Narvaez, are just some of the distinct fencing styles out there. (Most of them are named after their designer) Not to mention the older long-sword styles, and the newer foil, saber, and epee. Odds are pretty good that at least one of them used a sword similar to the Chinese, and therefore would have used it in a similar way as the Chinese.

I am not familiar enough with the Chinese Sword to point you in the right direction, though, as far as which one.

Hope this helps.

 

[Flying Crane]

The foil is such a modern version of "fencing" that it is hard to use that as a comparison to a lethal Chinese alternative. As far as I know, there is no Chinese version of a foil. (The foil was based on "smallsword" techniques -- not rapier or side-sword.)

The hard part about this question is that there are many, many different styles of historical fencing, plus the modern counterparts of foil, epee, and saber. But the kicker is that for each style, either the style was built around the limitations of the weapon, and the quality of steel which limited its size and weight, or the sword was built around the style later, when metallurgy allowed that.

ah, yes, good points here. In reading the OP, my brain just assumed he meant modern fencing. If that is true, then I believe my earlier comments are accurate. If he actually meant something more like European Swordsmanship, then that is a different animal altogether.

 

[Langenschwert]

Hi guys,

Here's a clip about Chinese longsword, featuring the most excellent Scott Rodell.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kUiDGat-6rM

Note the similarity in stances to medieval and renaissance European systems.

Now, trying to relate modern versions of Chinese MA to their medieval European counterparts becomes problematic. Many Chinese systems have lost their combative approach. Thus while those in HES are reconstructing from manuals, Mr. Rodell and those of his ilk are reconstructing from forms whose combative applications have been largely forgotten. We are in that way kindred spirits, trying to recover the essence of sword combat from relics. Thus any direct comparisons are somewhat theoretical until the reconstruction of Chinese arts approaches that of the European ones. According to Mr. Rodell himself, he is about 10 years behind groups like ARMA. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't compare and spar to see how we're both doing. I'll cross blades with anyone, anytime, unless they're grossly unsafe.

However, it's evident that the human body moves in only so many ways, and thus sword combat has only a certain amount of permutations. Perhaps your best bet for comparison is either Italian arming sword (like Fiore) or German langen messer (like Leckuchner), both one-handed weapons. In seeing how these pragmatic systems dealt with bladed combat without a shield or buckler, perhaps some insights as to how the Chinese dealt with the same problems might be gleaned.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[thardey]

Hi guys,

Here's a clip about Chinese longsword, featuring the most excellent Scott Rodell.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kUiDGat-6rM

Note the similarity in stances to medieval and renaissance European systems.


Best regards,

-Mark

That's an interesting clip -- his grip, most of the cuts, and the footwork look almost exactly like the work we've been doing all summer with Marozzo's two-handed sword techs. Particularly the guards, and method of "soft blocking" the cuts ("shedding" them, instead of stopping them.)

With that much similarity of the footwork (a lot of the attacks involve a passing step to the outside of the opponent, followed by a straight line attack, much like Marozzo) between two handed swords - I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a striking similarity between Chinese single-sword and Marozzo single-sword as well. It might be a place to start looking.

Also, the design of Marozzo's single-handed blade was shorter, and wider (not necessarily heavier!) than the average rapier. In fact, it's not much different in balance and length than the Chinese Jian, (including the use of a pommel) from what I understand. (The notable differences are in the design of the guard - Marozzo's has wider quillions and a simple knuckle-guard).

 

[Xue Sheng]

ahhh the jain the weapon of the gentleman

You see this is why I like the Dao, no fuss, no muss, no confusion just slash and bash :EG: :uhyeah:

Since I have never done any fencing I really can't say but form what I have done working with a jain and thinking about the fencing I have seen I really do not see that many similarities actually. The Jain to me seems more versatile but as I said I have never done any fencing.

 

[thardey]

Since I have never done any fencing I really can't say but form what I have done working with a jain and thinking about the fencing I have seen I really do not see that many similarities actually. The Jain to me seems more versatile but as I said I have never done any fencing.

With what I have done with the rapier, and thinking about the fencing I have seen (foil, that is), I don't see many similarities, either. "The pointy end goes into the other man" is about it. If I picked up a foil, I would be totally lost.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Hi guys,

Here's a clip about Chinese longsword, featuring the most excellent Scott Rodell.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kUiDGat-6rM

Note the similarity in stances to medieval and renaissance European systems.

That was very interesting. I found that a lot of the techniques demonstrated are very similar to techniques for the dragon staff (a stout staff about the same length as the swords Mr Rodell was using). Perhaps some of these older sword techniques have been preserved in that weapon's forms.

 

[tellner]

It could be, Xue Sheng. It could also be a more subtle genealogy. The use of weapons in particular and military martial arts in general built on each other over generations. The soldiers in one age became the trainers in the next. They had ways of moving, body mechanics and methods for progressive methods for training recruits. Things like this tend to be passed down as long as they continue to work. If the movement is valid it will be applied to different weapons with of course changes appropriate to the nature of the different tool.

Covering the low right to the high left with a sweeping motion followed with a backhand strike is substantially the same for all similarly long cutting weapons and not that different for a bludgeon of about the same dimensions. One sounds like "slice, plop, spurt, spurt, thud" after the finishing move. The other goes "swish, crunch, crack, thud". The lines, distance, body mechanics, etc aren't that different.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hi guys,
Mr. Rodell

Nice clips

Just a note Scott Rodell teaches Yang Family Michuan which is supposedly one of the secret fighting styles of the Yang family

 

[Langenschwert]

Just a note Scott Rodell teaches Yang Family Michuan which is supposedly one of the secret fighting styles of the Yang family

Well, it was all secret at one time. Liechtenauer swore his students to secrecy, etc. etc. The only thing is that there are only a few "tricks" that separate similar sword traditions once you get down to brass tacks. Mind you, those tricks might save your life against a superior opponent, hence the secrecy when those systems were in use. However, in modern times there has been so much cross-pollination (and of course stealing ideas from someone you fight and beat in historical encounters), I doubt there's any sword technique that's actually distinct enough to be really "secret" anymore.

That being said, I really respect Mr. Rodell's work. He's probably the best thing to happen to Chinese swordsmanship in modern times.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, it was all secret at one time. Liechtenauer swore his students to secrecy, etc. etc. The only thing is that there are only a few "tricks" that separate similar sword traditions once you get down to brass tacks. Mind you, those tricks might save your life against a superior opponent, hence the secrecy when those systems were in use. However, in modern times there has been so much cross-pollination (and of course stealing ideas from someone you fight and beat in historical encounters), I doubt there's any sword technique that's actually distinct enough to be really "secret" anymore.

That being said, I really respect Mr. Rodell's work. He's probably the best thing to happen to Chinese swordsmanship in modern times.

Best regards,

-Mark

which is why I said

supposedly one of the secret fighting styles of the Yang family

Nothing against Mr Rodell I just have a tendancy to doubt anything labeled as "Secret" when you are talking CMA.

 

[Langenschwert]

Nothing against Mr Rodell I just have a tendancy to doubt anything labeled as "Secret" when you are talking CMA.

Indeed. I was aware that I was preaching to the choir. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Best regards,

-Mark