Mike this is really a good conversation because we actually agree on so much when it comes to how it sounds like we both live our training lives. It's the unseen that's so good to bounce off one another in this internet medium though! It's just like training, we sharpen one another. It's good. We expand our language in the arts. No herbs involved. It's honest mindful communication.
RHD said:
You lose me right at the end of that. Have you done some documented research on the subject or is this your opinion?
I'm basing my opinion on research I've done in a wide range of mind/body topics: eastern and western bodyworkers (includ feldenkrais & rolf. Also sports psychology, bio-feedback, body centered psychology, NLP, work with leos, training in competitive environments, etc.
We can basically seperate the ideas about our 'mind' into different theories on conscious and subconsious functioning of the mind, and left and right hemispheres of the brain. Hemespheric conditions would be like how men and women are different in emotional vs. rational processing of information. Both are right. But when we live together and are forced to experience the others processes first hand, it stretches us. Challenges our views of reality. Neither is right or wrong. They just are. Different manifestations of a central balance in order to propagate the race.
In any individual there are also various mixtures of conscious and subcsious, as well as left and right hemispheric dominance.
Lets focus on left/right hemisphere for now. In normal people the dominant hemisphere switches every 1.5 hours. More air flows thru one nostral because of this, and changes every 1.5 hours. Sleep patterns occur in 1.5 hour intervals, digestive cycles, etc. These are called circadian cycles, and they exist from cycles of a few nanoseconds on the cellular level to the 28 days cycles of women. A micro cosm of the cosmic cycles that make up the basis of how we measure time.
For a great primer into modern brain wave and biofeedback research read 'Mega Brain' By Michael Hutchenson. Investigative Journalism into 'mind machines' and modern biofeedback techniques.
This is a large part of my training methodology.
And that's 99% of good martial art! I love it!
You're not talking about forms the way I understand them. Forms in Chinese martial arts...to my comprehension, are about literal applications only on the lowest levels of understanding. Chinese forms are all about concepts and concept based training. They are not A-Z like a paint by the numbers kit. They are to be broken down, studied inside and out, and most of all played with...but not for the sake of just jumping around or swinging sticks because "it's cool".
I apologize for judging and assuming what your personal methodology behind forms training is. Your absolutely right about the paint by numbers. My past experience with trying to learn martial art from forms was that I didn't feel like it was helping me conquer fear when faced with physical conflict. I didn't feel like I was learning to fight. I didn't feel any more comfortable in the 'zone'. The 'zone' was a fearful place, it involved energy exchanges I was afraid of to the point of preventing me from responding in a smart way.
Fear makes me tense up and not respond in a relaxed way. Now rather then mask fear with attiributes, I aspire to replace it with technical comfort.
What I notice is that the more I put myself in bad situations and work out to place of comfort, then suddenly I had more comfortable places!
To do this in a relaxed way is the fun part. Relaxed means following the shortest most leverage effective path to accomplish any goal. So many ways so much room for creativity with effectiveness. I love that.
Formlessness is non-existent in martial arts for purposes of training. Every time a person practices a movement for speed, power, or understanding, with or without a partner, they are practicing form.
This is where your missing out. Examine the use of water and wind for more intensive understanding of form thru amplified biofeedback. Go lunge across the pool 10 times and tell me that's not making you a better martial artist. You have to use form, yet really get it, you have to be formless enough to blend with slight currents to get it right. Subtles that gravity mask. Also it developes long chain muscle groups and transitional core strength.
Go do push hand with a training partner waist deep in a pool and see how much more 'light' you both become. It's fun, where theres fun there is enthusiasm and energy. You can't punch a bag as hard as you can forever, but you could do push hands in a pool for a long time.
My point here is just to have fun bro. Elemental immersion provides an atomosphere of unpredicatability not experienced in daily activity, and only partially amplified while practicing martial art in a vacuum.
Geese Dave, lighten up. Yes, quality drilling can help quite a bit. In fact, without it you will get killed. It's an invaluable training tool. You have to walk before you run (See I can philosophize too)
Hey man, I'm being totally light, I'm just saying that the wind is fun and I like to play in it and your saying that's worthless and I'm nuts, that this doesn't make my martial art any better... but I'm saying that it does.... and it's fun to play in the wind. Isn't it ironic your telling me to lighten up while I'm telling you to go play in the wind?
It's fun, you gotta try it! Things will start alligning differently.
Did I say something about college students and herbal substances in a previous post? Have you been watching re-runs of the Kung Fu TV series? Sorry to inform you...Carrdine is an actor. Kwai Chang Kane was a fictional character. Chinese martial arts were not necessarily created by philosphizing monks on secluded mountain tops. This may be what we Westerners want to hear, but it isn't necessarily the truth.
I associate with people on a daily basis that are very effective fighters that believe all kinds of things.
Mike listen: I'm not romantisizing, I'm genuinely searching for truth. If there is no truth to be found in martial art then I will have to discover that eventually. But so far, I have found the opposite; many truths in martial art that translate into daily living in ways that turns responsibility into a pleasure instead of a struggle.
Is that circular to you? Learning real problem solving skills that work in the hear and now? I think that practical living requires the ability to transform energy on many levels, not just physical. It's the inability to transform energy that plagues people with emotional problems.
"I study so that if someone trys to harm my family or myself I can defend against it. I study so that those I teach can do the same. If someone wants to "communicate" with me in a harmful way they will eat my fist."
Your studying one extreme in a full spectrum of body language. There is no healing science in hung gar? Is that correct?
A brief history of all Southern Chinese fighting systems in broad terms:
These fighting systems were devloped by fighters who needed practical methods of defending themselves from, and fighting back against an oppressive and militant government. They were used to kill and to prevent from being killed in those pursuits. Hung Gar is included in this broad spectrum history. It is a fighting system based on necessity and practicality.
Cool. I'll research it. I get the general impression from other readings that
there are many philosophical influences in martial art by buddhism and taoist philosophy.
I think you have no idea what my understanding of kung fu or combat science is. Let me tell you that I know the difference between the real deal and a Mcmartial art. Do you? Belts mean nothing.
I don't, that's why we're sharing information on the internet right? Or is this some kind of fetish for you? <lol>
I wouldn't know without touching someone or moving in proximity with them.
Can you expound on this? That's a good one. Although I'm under the impression that the hands are connected to the ground thru the center of gravity, and that we can fling gravity around ourselves in elipses, but I usually do that job with my hips and footwork, how is your kung fu in your hands?
Kung fu is not practicing forms in the wind.
Stand in one place long enough to connect the whole beyond the pain of any one part and the wind quickly becomes a medium to be exercised within. Your friend to have conversations with. By practicing only an external form of martial art your missing out on making these connections.
Mike you honestly talk like your half way decent at fighting and can defend yourself well! I bet we would have great training, and learn much from each other...
...but your not talking like you want to understand movement in totality, you're talking like you only want to know how to hurt people. Not how to move more effectively all the time. You should experiment with movement more. Learn how to ride a unicycle or something. Your being very aggresive and I wonder if you have an aggresive personality when you deal with people face to face when in deep conversation.
[/QUOTE]Wrong. The most effective fighters in history are never heard from. You present a very romanticised version of combat. For example: Samurai texts from the 19th century are full of codes, honor, art, and philosophy. Samurai texts from earlier periods are full of body counts, troop movements, and gritty details related to battle. Why? Because the later Samurai texts where of a period where there was no war, when the Samurai had to justify thier existence. Note: they aren't around now.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah totally. I think though that documented history was controled by warlords with interests of warlords. The samurai were a product of a groomed culture of fishermen from China and the influences of Zen Buddhism upon their Way of living. The effectiveness of applying those philosophical influences to life and death situations is reflected in history books accordingly within peace and war. Body counts body war, poetry during peace. Very Japanese.
Every culture has it's cycles of war and peace. We have our paradoxial cycles of love and hate. Good observation. But don't you think that's kind of unique to the Way of the 'japanese' vs the 'way' of the chinese? There are some cultural distinctions, in their martial arts as well I think.
What a load of poo! Are you trying to sell to us that the Gracies and Machados are that great? Theya re skilled at what they do. They are skilled businessmen as well. BJJ and modern "grappling' with a few rare exceptions will get you killed on a battlfield with multiple opponents, weapons, and the need for efficiency. If the SEALS are trianing with these guys it's because its a good set of skills to compliment thier other training. Have you been in the military? I have. I can assure you that if BJJ and "grappling" was that great then every soldier from the lowliest private to a 4 star general would be training in it.
Well, I have trained with army rangers who liked it too. And my name aint Gracie or Machado. I'm Dave. And I think your right, it's a set of skills that was neglected for a long time but is now being combined with the whole picture.
You know though that modern hand to hand engagement is taking place in smaller places as a result of urban fighting. The military has gradually changed tactics to adapt to increase urban buildup. I.E. MOUT. The hand to hand combat the military teaches is evolving because of this. Things change. No more trench warfare. There are no walls on the open battlefeild. It's good to know how to scrap someone off your back with a wall.
And you know there are a lot more PD and Mil guys training grappling now then kung fu. I have personally worked with at least half a dozen PD guys that work in the worst princinct here. And know of at least 2 other groups in Portland alone that train in central city PD's, and they arn't spending hours practicing forms or punching a bag. Their grappling. Would they do fu in the wind? ehhh... probably not! heh.
But why are they DOING it? Because Grappling provides the individual with a foundation called Positional Dominance. A safe neutral place to use as a base to lanch any attack or defense you need.
Grab a pair of handcuffs and then go put them on an average highschool wrestler. It'll take 3 guys if they don't know what they are doing.
Alive training answers the "what if's" of the academy with applied action. Not just a try this or try that theory.
And that's most of the defensive tactics at academies. What if's and Pain compliance don't work on people who neither predicable nor compliant.
Repeating a few movements in acadamy without continued training doesn't produce officers with good judgement during stressful situations. Continued training in a progressive and evolutional way does.
I have had the honor of training with our local PD, and I know this to be fact. PD wants stuff that works everytime. They want things that increase an officers ability to make sound judgements under stress. Thus, the training that works on the street and that cops KNOW works on the street is training in an alive environment. Technique that they can FEEL work real time, when they are honestly resisting each other.
Mike I don't think it's the 'range' of grappling that attracts them... having to be close to a bad guy on his terms is not good... but here is what I think attracts them. The unpredicatability of training with aliveness. This produces officers that respond with a cool head under pressure.
Police have much stricter use of force matrix's then the military does. And here's where the problem starts for them. The defensive tactics training that the average officer recieves in acadamy doesn't prepare him for unpredicability in physical conflict. The need to feel in control is important for an officer to make good decisions. Because of a lack of preparedness control is not maintained and unneeded injury and in some cases death occurs because an officer escalated his use of force continuum out of fear.
Training in a live way can help prevent these tragedies. But what is special about grappling? Why grappling? Training in grappling is a way to continually move with people in real ways without the traumatic impact of striking. You can 'play' strike every single day, but you can't really hit, but you can really throw and lock and choke and knee ride, everything except that snap of a strike.
Do it over and over all the time you have cops that feel good if someone decides to grab them. Not cops that are afraid and worked up in the face of conflict. But cops who have spent the time to think thru everything on the training floor, and train, and when reality strikes, you have all that smart training to fall back on, you have auto pilot that responds accordingly You get cops that can handle themselves understress and 'respect the tap'. When the chase is done the criminal is handcuffed and justice is served. There arn't extra smackdowns and roughness. Justice is achieved and exercised thru superior use of resources and proper response, not from fear reactions.
Most forms champions will probably never have to fight for thier life. Are you experienced in this arena?
I have never had to fight for my life. You? I have worked directly with officers though who deal with life and death physical conflict. I speak their language and understand the use of force matrix that those in authority to take life have to follow in order to be justified. The training methods we have employed have proven effective in controlling situations of physical conflict with bad guys bent on hurting people.
The only wind I want to feel when I train is a strike passing by or my training partner's breath being expelled. Have you practice grappling in the wind? Why? Did it make you better, or did it have some "deeper meaning" to it?
The pool is better for grappling. The core muscle groups are worked and increased balance and coordinated use of long chain muscle groups is achived. The wind isn't like that. It's more aerodynamic.
I used to wonder about arm geometry, what was the perfect neutral arm position in any stance? Cat Horse Side Wu Ji Universal ready, etc. Every art has some stances. From boxing to aikido.
What if they're all just little modifications of a core geometry that feeds all of them? Why arn't we talking about universal truths we can both connect to?
Put your hand out the window and feel how airflow changes as you change the shape of your hand. If you change the shape of your hand while swimming your move thru the water different. Universal truth.
If you change your hand into the 'drilling fist of xing yi' while your pommeling in grappling, it's really an effective way to get an underhook. or drill a floating rib... hey everything has it's place.
The power of moving with playful exploration teaches just as many facts as sparring to submission. It's just a matter of processing those facts and integrating them into your game. The inability to process information is the responsibility of the practitioner. Everything he has to learn is right in front of him. Other people are just guiding us to understand what's already here.
Wind or water, it's a form Biofeedback. Biofeedback is a way to actively take part in processes that are not normally conscious. This includes alligning and cooridnating body mechanics to minute degrees.
Any activity that helps me understand the 'essense' of movement is good.
That could be a dance with my wife. Movement is movement. Who's leading and who's following? Nature is an excellent teacher.
Maybe you've already felt it and you've dismissed those sensations. Ever lean into a strong wing and say to yourself, wow... that's cool. Ever float on your back in the ocean? We have a diverse range of elemental interaction. Each is a form of biofeedback.
Wind or water, it's just a form of biofeedback. Any form of biofeedback that i can experience thru kinesthetic physics is of benifit to me. I think that surfing is benificial to martial art. It seems to me your putting martial art in a nice little compartmentalized box of fighting. If anything is western, it's that. I think you know that, and that's the way you want it. A way to defend yourself. That's nobel and totally honorable. I respect that completely.
No Dave, I just ask questions and expect people to spoon feed me the answers. Really, that was the most mind numbing question I've ever been asked. Here's one for you: Do you ever not talk in circles?
So what kind of questions do you wonder about progress in martial art? Do you think it can be a transformative process for people? Are is it all just punching and kicking? Nothing more to it? You realize we havn't even been discussing ideas behind 'chi', and already we're differing on a lot of topics, but we're learning more about each other! The more information the clearer the whole picture! Onward!
Regards,
Dave in Oregon
