States consider taxing you by the mile...

[Bob Hubbard]

[font=arial,helvetica]From Slashdot
Your Rights Online: California Wants GPS Tracking Device in Every Car[/font]
Posted by Zonk on Tuesday February 15, @03:48PM
from the now-this-is-a-good-use-of-engineering dept.
HTS Member writes "California has a new excuse for more taxes. Claiming losses due to fuel-efficient cars, such as Gasoline/Electric Hybrids, California is cooking-up a new system to punish people who aren't using enough gasoline. They want to tax commuters by the mile. How would this be accomplished? By requiring everyone to install a GPS device in their vehicle, and charge them their "taxes" every time they fuel-up. From the article: 'Drivers will get charged for how many miles they use the roads, and it's as simple as that.. [a] team at Oregon State University equipped a test car with a global positioning device to keep track of its mileage. Eventually, every car would need one.'"
Read More:

 

[Rich Parsons]

[font=arial,helvetica]From Slashdot
Your Rights Online: California Wants GPS Tracking Device in Every Car[/font]
Posted by Zonk on Tuesday February 15, @03:48PM
from the now-this-is-a-good-use-of-engineering dept.
HTS Member writes "California has a new excuse for more taxes. Claiming losses due to fuel-efficient cars, such as Gasoline/Electric Hybrids, California is cooking-up a new system to punish people who aren't using enough gasoline. They want to tax commuters by the mile. How would this be accomplished? By requiring everyone to install a GPS device in their vehicle, and charge them their "taxes" every time they fuel-up. From the article: 'Drivers will get charged for how many miles they use the roads, and it's as simple as that.. [a] team at Oregon State University equipped a test car with a global positioning device to keep track of its mileage. Eventually, every car would need one.'"
Read More:

This is just plan stupid. It defeats the point of trying to get better MPG and better emissions. If I am taxed by mile, and drive very little, I could own an old Gas Guzzler and pay less than a hybrid. whihc by hte way the hybrid costs more money in the first place and they sell becuase you can save money on fuel.

Yet California is not know for being logical. They have/had a law that required 2% of a manufacturers volume be zero percent (0%) at the tail pipe. You can offer the electric cars to people, but if they do not sell, not you cannot sell other cars? Oh yes, it is also based upon your national volume not your California volume. So many of the inports slipped through, and no such requirement.

Oh well, gives me something else to work on in the cars.

 

[dubljay]

Its not just california to blame either, There are tests being conducted at oregon state university on this same idea.

 

[Cryozombie]

Yeah. That will work.

Morons.

 

[Flatlander]

It seems to me that taxing the fuel would be a more efficient way of collecting taxes. It also helps encourage people to move to more fuel efficient vehicles.

I give this idea 2 thumbs down.

:shrug:

 

[Tgace]

The "problem" is that much of the road repair funds come from fuel taxes...pay in one place for it or have it jacked up elsewhere to make up the difference. Some states are afraid that the advantages of more fuel efficient cars will result in lack of $$ for road work, or just mean even ****** roads than we already have.....its the way of things, one change effects the whole system. Theres going to be "growing pains" no matter what we do.

 

[Zepp]

That CBS report strikes me as irresponsible reporting. They never mentioned which California department, or what officials are supposedly considering this ridiculous idea. I highly doubt anything will come of this.

 

[Bammx2]

screw that.

Kiss my soon to be amish a$$!

 

[michaeledward]

Kiss my soon to be amish a$$!

Might that be the point exactly?

Are we are the fat, drunk Romans not noticing the decline of our empire? Are we too busy driving the a mile down the road to the Burger King Drive Thru (Super-size that) to notice what it is doing to our environment and our physical health?

Using taxes to alter behavior has been shown to work.

Hmm ....

 

[Bammx2]

Might that be the point exactly?

Are we are the fat, drunk Romans not noticing the decline of our empire? Are we too busy driving the a mile down the road to the Burger King Drive Thru (Super-size that) to notice what it is doing to our environment and our physical health?

Using taxes to alter behavior has been shown to work.

Hmm ....

I must say...That has got my staement beat!
I do agree with you Mr.Edward.
If people stopped driving so much...we would be in better shape and there would be less things for the government to tax.
We,as a whole, have become too reliant on technology and industry and certain parties are taking advantage of it.
Even though I live in the UK...I will be returning home to the states one day and over here...a lot of people walk everywhere or use public trans a lot more than back home.

 

[shesulsa]

Folks, this is how the Department of Transportation taxes the big rigs. I worked at a major oil company's distribution center in Portland, Oregon and we were required to keep a log of daily mileage and report it annually to the DOT and pay taxes based on the mileage reports for their license. The idea being that these mega-ton vehicles cause more damage to the road than the average passenger vehicle, hence the owners should pay more taxes. In Oregon it has been proposed several times but it has not yet come to a vote. Interesting that they found the work-around. Backwards friggin, Texas-wannabe Oregon state.

And my daughter laughed at me when I suggested a multi-geared quadricycle powered largely manually and encompassed for weatherability. Problems would be that it must be lightweight, hence likely unsafe compared to it's on-road companions. Emergency braking could be problematic also. But think of how much money we would safe, how much healthier we would be, how much better our environment would be. Ah well. Just call me a dreamer.

 

[Ping898]

I must say...That has got my staement beat!
I do agree with you Mr.Edward.
If people stopped driving so much...we would be in better shape and there would be less things for the government to tax.
We,as a whole, have become too reliant on technology and industry and certain parties are taking advantage of it.
Even though I live in the UK...I will be returning home to the states one day and over here...a lot of people walk everywhere or use public trans a lot more than back home.

Maybe your lucky, but where I work/live there is very limited and in most cases no public transportation. For me to get to work it is too dangerous of a trip and too long to try biking or anything other than driving. Sometimes cars are a necessary evil. And you can car pool with people and try not to drive much, but the reality of the US especially in the southwest is things are too far apart to be able to use any transportation besides driving. Also with the expection of major cities, most places don't have any public transportation to get around town. Greyhound bussing is a hairs breath away from chapter 11. I realize this is due in large part of people not using the services and them being shut down, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't use what doesn't exist.
I figure eventually we will all be taxed for the miles we drive, but I can't see GPS being the way, at least not in it's current form. Way too easy to hack and fix to make like you've done no movement, or done someone else's movement. They ought to just throw tolls on all the roads, have an automated billing system like ezpass, that at the end of the month/quarter/year you get a tax bill for the driving you've done. You want to drive on it, you pay for the driving you actually do and be done with it and skip all the gps stuff.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Folks, this is how the Department of Transportation taxes the big rigs. I worked at a major oil company's distribution center in Portland, Oregon and we were required to keep a log of daily mileage and report it annually to the DOT and pay taxes based on the mileage reports for their license. The idea being that these mega-ton vehicles cause more damage to the road than the average passenger vehicle, hence the owners should pay more taxes. In Oregon it has been proposed several times but it has not yet come to a vote. Interesting that they found the work-around. Backwards friggin, Texas-wannabe Oregon state.

And my daughter laughed at me when I suggested a multi-geared quadricycle powered largely manually and encompassed for weatherability. Problems would be that it must be lightweight, hence likely unsafe compared to it's on-road companions. Emergency braking could be problematic also. But think of how much money we would safe, how much healthier we would be, how much better our environment would be. Ah well. Just call me a dreamer.

SS et al,

I agree this is how the Big Rigs or Semi's or etc, are done. I also agree that as thier mass is much greater the arguement can be made that the 96 ton dump truck and 86 ton steel hauler cause more damage then the 2500 lbs hybrid.

Yet to punish those who would by a hybrid, for it is punishment, they spend about 4,000 to 10,000 USD more and most likely will not get the benefit back in dollars from the gas pump over the life of the vehicle, yet what savings they got, is now gone. This does not drive people away form the 7 seat SUV's as single person commute vehicles. It punishes those who are out there looking to help. Poorly thought out in my opinion.

I agree that a mile is a mile traveled and then you can be taxed upon it, but to say you are loosing money because of the hybrid, something that California basically drove into existence, is just stupidity. Not ignorance, but stupidity. They are not thinking beyond their immediate near term needs of this year and next years road repairs.

 

[Gray Phoenix]

Using taxes to alter behavior has been shown to work.

I'm gonna have to agree with this. Our country was started because someone thought it was a good idea to add a tax to the system.

That being said, it is not the governments place to "alter" my behavior by taking what doesnt belong to them, anymore than me and my "homies" robbing an old lady for being in "my" hood. One could argue, that in this situation the thug would be justified in levying local transportation tax.

I dont not believe we are the Romans watching our empire decline. However, I do think that the world is changing. We enjoy freedoms the world has never seen, and most religions ban. At a time in the Earths history, when the enviorment is in warming period. I'm not blind to the smog in LA, and I do admit that our country has had an effect on world climate. However, in the great scheme of things, our country has had this effect for 150 years. I find it highly unlikely that 150 years out of the millions the earth has been around will have any long term effects on the earth.

 

[shesulsa]

In Oregon it has been proposed several times but it has not yet come to a vote. Interesting that they found the work-around. Backwards friggin, Texas-wannabe Oregon state.

I should clarify what I meant by the above statement; that Oregon DOT has proposed taxing passenger vehicles by the mile as well, but it has never made it to the vote.

I'm further concerned that they are the special ones who get to come up with this technology. Here's a few facts about OH-REE-GAWN that some of you might not know:

1. The state spend millions of dollars on a computer system and software for the Department of Licensing that didn't work - and never did. They had to go back to the old system and trashed the new purchase because it didn't work.

2. The state likes to consider itself rather liberal despite initiatives that HAVE made it to the vote and which voters passed but were overturned - laws like medical marijuana and assissted suicide. Oregonians voted their conscious, but the state legislature squashed said conscious.

3. The population of the city of Seattle (proper) in Washington State is greater than the population of the entire state of Oregon, yet Oregonians pay more for everything, get less quality and get fewer services.

Now back to the Big Brother Boxes - these GPS devices are going to cost ... how much ... anywhere between $80 and $300 apiece? How much money are they going to make off these things? Maybe a hundred dollars tops for each vehicle on average per year? And then they break and have to be replaced. Who are they kidding?!? They expect to make money off of this?

WEEEEWEEEEWEEEEWEEEEWEEEEWEEEEWEEEEWEEEEWEEEE

There goes that B.S. alarm again.

 

[michaeledward]

Maybe your lucky, but where I work/live there is very limited and in most cases no public transportation. For me to get to work it is too dangerous of a trip and too long to try biking or anything other than driving. Sometimes cars are a necessary evil. And you can car pool with people and try not to drive much, but the reality of the US especially in the southwest is things are too far apart to be able to use any transportation besides driving. Also with the expection of major cities, most places don't have any public transportation to get around town. Greyhound bussing is a hairs breath away from chapter 11. I realize this is due in large part of people not using the services and them being shut down, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't use what doesn't exist.
I figure eventually we will all be taxed for the miles we drive, but I can't see GPS being the way, at least not in it's current form. Way too easy to hack and fix to make like you've done no movement, or done someone else's movement. They ought to just throw tolls on all the roads, have an automated billing system like ezpass, that at the end of the month/quarter/year you get a tax bill for the driving you've done. You want to drive on it, you pay for the driving you actually do and be done with it and skip all the gps stuff.

You get to choose where you are going to live. If road travel is taxed, you might choose to live closer to where you work, thus eliminating the need for what you describe as a 'necessary evil'.

And if indeed that 'sometimes' cars are a necessary evil, that would mean that sometimes, they are not, such as the first 11,000 years of homo sapiens agricultural based communities (as opposed to hunter gatherer communities ... which are millions of years old).

I don't think this tax is a particularly smart idea, but it would, perhaps prevent people from destroying open spaces in the rural areas surrounding the cities to build McMansions. Oregonians have some of the best urban sprawl prevention programs in the country, if I am to believe the reports I hear. This sounds like it might be a tool in that kit.

 

[michaeledward]

I'm gonna have to agree with this. Our country was started because someone thought it was a good idea to add a tax to the system.

That being said, it is not the governments place to "alter" my behavior by taking what doesnt belong to them, anymore than me and my "homies" robbing an old lady for being in "my" hood. One could argue, that in this situation the thug would be justified in levying local transportation tax.

I dont not believe we are the Romans watching our empire decline. However, I do think that the world is changing. We enjoy freedoms the world has never seen, and most religions ban. At a time in the Earths history, when the enviorment is in warming period. I'm not blind to the smog in LA, and I do admit that our country has had an effect on world climate. However, in the great scheme of things, our country has had this effect for 150 years. I find it highly unlikely that 150 years out of the millions the earth has been around will have any long term effects on the earth.

People institute governments. Governments create and enforce laws. In order to create and enforce laws, for the protection of the citizens, funding for the governments' existance and operations must be provided. What alternative source of funding do you suggest we implement fund the establishment of laws.

By the way, those laws define what "belongs to you". Without adequate laws in place, nothing belongs to you if someone and his hommies decides it should belong to them.

Be careful of making an anachists argument when you think you are making a conservative one.

Concerning your argument about the environment ... of course the planet has existed for millions (actually estimates are in the 5 to 6 billion year range) years. Of course, it will continue to exist, regardless of how many fossil fuels are burned and how much carbon dioxide we pump into the planet's rather thin atmosphere. The question is, will the planet remain habitable by mammals, after these activities take place. I'm sure the great lizards thought that after a 100,000,000 years of dominance on the planet, a silly little meteorite would cause the planet any long term effects either.

 

[Bammx2]

I do understand that some peole live in areas that have never even seen public transportation and you have no choice but to drive to get to work.

But that doesn't mean the government should take advantage of those people either.
So therefore, its up to EVERYBODY to fight against something like this.
If they tax the "country people", they will tax me.
Compared to the US...I am lucky I live in a country the size of a stamp

But over here in the UK...you taxed on EVERYTHING!
Its even mandatory that you have a t.v licence which you pay for annually!

But you actually have to have a "tax disc" in your windshield to show you have paid a "road tax" each year. They say its for the upkeep of the roads.....LIE!
You litteraly have to pay for the right to drive here.
Taxing by the mile.................
Sounds familiar..
Do we want that back home?

 

[shesulsa]

How would you say your tax dollar is valued, though? Are your roads of good quality and kept in good repair? Do you have an efficient licensing system that you feel is worth what you pay?

See, to continue using Oregon as an example, they had an incredibly low passenger vehicle licensinng system about which the legislature were initally adamant that was sufficient to pay for all needs for the state. When I moved there 10 years ago, it cost $35.00 for a two-year vehicle registration, and emissions testing was also every other year. However, the roads are not always in the greatest of repair. There are certainly areas which are in dire need of repaving, pothole repair, and the downtown streets look horrible.

I suppose the idea behind the per-mile tax is designed to be fair - tax those who use the roads the most. But there are much less expensive ways to track mileage than a GPS system in every vehicle - all it takes is an odometer check at annual or bi-annual vehicular inspection. That is quite simply a no-brainer.

C'mon, folks. The GPS system is for more than mileage tracking. It's for automated speed control, theft control ... it's a tiny little law enforcement officer of your very own right in your car. Wanna bet what's coming after we all have a GPS in every vehicle? Massive cuts in law enforcement. And you can follow what comes after that.

 

[MisterMike]

To be fair, taxing by the mile is not accurate. I could ride my motorcycle 50,000 miles per year and it is not going to give the wear and tear to the roads like a bus or tractor trailor will.

I'd say that law has a "Congressional Oversight."