Starting from Scratch

[dvcochran]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

 

[drop bear]

It depends on you.

Go do it and find out.

 

[jobo]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

There seem little point doing a similar style and quite a lot of point in doing something completely different

 

[oldwarrior]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

I have started to study a completely different style ...it still gets me as well what I think i should be doing when an attack comes umm the master looks and smiles and says nope wrong style ...he is and has been very patient and realizes it ok when thigs slowed up but at speed I kind of go into another mode lol

No no ego at all but I haven't graded in any arts in over 10 plus years ...I made the decision that I study for me not for any ego boost

 

[oldwarrior]

Did actually have a minor blip a few nights ago when I was supposed to be doing one thing and I ended up doing a form of tenchin nage lol...I was embarrassing as the poor guy ended up with a kind of sore butt and head ...i guess I went into auto pilot ...lesson learned though ...concentrate more lol

 

[oftheherd1]

Did actually have a minor blip a few nights ago when I was supposed to be doing one thing and I ended up doing a form of tenchin nage lol...I was embarrassing as the poor guy ended up with a kind of sore butt and head ...i guess I went into auto pilot ...lesson learned though ...concentrate more lol

Yes and no. I have always believed, and taught myself to react with what some part of my brain selected in a split second. As you mentioned, when you think about a response, it may slow you down. I wish you luck in learning another art without employing your previous art. I would be a little worried about trying it. I know a lot of practitioners here on MT have done or still do it.

 

[oftheherd1]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

See my post above to OLDWARRIOR. But if you are going to do it, I am inclined to think starting out with a white belt is not a problem, and may in fact be more appropriate. After all, you are presumably starting out in a different art, and need to learn basics just like everyone else. If you come in wearing a higher belt and started doing dumb things, like most beginners do, you would look worse in my opinion.

 

[Mark Lynn]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

I don't believe you can "start over" in another style unless.......
1) you have a long time between arts (so your body has had time to forget)
2) you weren't in the previous style(s) to long
3) Your going from a TOTALLY different style such as a grappling to something like traditional karate, TKD, or something like that.

....... with out your previous style showing through in some manner. Even then some of the material you learned before could/should show up. Would it be hard not to inject any of your experience as a BB? Personally I would separate ego from experience. But eliminating one or the other or both from class depends all upon you. Is it refreshing to just go to class as an open book? Yes and No again it depends upon the individual.

I think the bigger question fro the individual is why change? What do you hope to get out of the experience? How is changing going to help you obtain your goals that are asked in the Why change, and What do you want questions and go from there? Because everyone will have different reasons for starting over, cross training, etc. etc.

 

[hoshin1600]

i have started over a few times. my experience is that who the instructor is will have a big factor on how you react to the new environment. going from karate to aikido; i was able to be a blank page "empty my cup" because it was so different but i had difficulty accepting my local teacher as my teacher because being an experienced martial artist i could see many of his faults.
when i started in a new karate school in a new style, this transition was difficult because i had a hard time breaking habits. however it was easy to accept the role as student because my new teacher on the first day proceeded to "physically" show me how everything i had learned and thought i new sucked. he broke me down first in order to build me back up. had he not done that i would have had the ego and not not let go of my past. he knew he had to create "the pecking order" and he was actually so much better then i was, that he could prove to me my karate sucked. if it had been another instructor they would not have had that skill level or the ability to get though my thick skull and i probably would not have stayed.

 

[wab25]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

I didn't know I was supposed to keep my jacket closed with my ego and experience. This is new... I must be doing it wrong. I also never had to flex my belts... for some reason they were all supple enough that I could tie them just fine.

That said I have started over in another art. I dabble in quite a few. If I get a chance to train in something new, I love to get out and try. I carry a white belt in my bag at all times, so I can put it on when trying something new.

You can learn a lot when trying something new. If you have experience, you can learn a lot more. First you are learning a new art. Second, you are can learn a lot more about your first / primary art, if you can set your ego down. (technically your ego should be in your bag, not around your waist, under your white belt, you only need one belt to close your jacket) You should see different applications of the same principles, different uses of the same stance or movement, different principles for a movement you already know... These things should make your primary art better.

I guess some people wear their ego on their sleeves... others wear it around their waist. People always claim MA are for self development. The very first part of that should be learning to set aside your ego and humble yourself, so you can learn something. And what exactly is "BB experince" anyway? Every art and every school has such different standards and requirements... BB doesn't really mean anything. I can't even count how many BBs I have met that would have serious issues defeating a wet paper bag... they might make an entertaining show out of it, but they wouldn't win. They can rationalize though...

At the end of the day MA is about training hard, getting better and learning something new. You have to pick what you want to learn and what you want to make better, then pick a school or schools that allow you to focus on what you want to focus on. Then work hard. Always stay humble and open... you never know what you might learn or from who.

 

[Mark Lynn]

There seem little point doing a similar style and quite a lot of point in doing something completely different

This is what I was referring to in my earlier post to DVOCHAN, the first question to ask yourself is Why change? For everyone will have different reasons for why they are thinking about changing to a different style. Along with What do they want to get out of it?

I have ranked in three separate arts that are similar or actually came from the same root, but they are all different expressions so to speak. At one point I started in JKD Kali and later I switched over to Presas Arnis under Hock Hochheim who lead me to train with GM Remy Presas in Modern Arnis and GM Ernesto Presas in Kombatan Arnis. Hock's system at that time was a blend of GM Remy's and Ernesto's systems. By training in camps under GM Remy I learned Modern Arnis in a more deeper level than Hock's program, same thing with GM Ernesto in Kombatan. However by continuing to train with Hock helped give me a different perspective of both brother's arts, likewise in training in Kombatan gave me a different perspective of Modern Arnis and Modern Arnis gave me a different perspective of Kombatan. So I ranked in Hock's FMA program, Modern Arnis, and Kombatan. I currently teach a blend like Hock did of both brothers systems and still train with various masters in both Kombatan and Modern Arnis. Each instructor has different ways of doing things different insights which continue my growth as a martial artist.

Likewise I enjoy the FMAs so I will still train with other FMA styles to gain further insights and to test my skills by picking up their drills and working with their people and such. But I had one training experience that lasted a little over a year when myself and one of my top students trained privately under another GM Art Miraflor in his personal style of escrima Mirarada escrima. We emptied our cups (so to speak) and just let him be the guide and teach us what he wanted to in his system. When we started there wasn't any thought of rank it was for me and Kevin just personal growth and like DVOCHAN said "Would it be refreshing just going to class as an open book?" To that I reply HECK YEAH. GM Art was only going to be with us for a couple of months so we just trained and listened to him tell us about a period of history (late 60's mid 70's) when he trained with GM Angle Cabals and GM Leo Giron and it ended up being a little over year. At first I wasn't real impressed with his system (but I knew when to shut up and be a student) so I kept my thoughts to myself and my student as we would analyze his techniques and such. As time went by we had a great time and learned a lot. Some of which I brought back into my classes and continue to teach in my Presas Arnis classes. GM Art gave us another perspective on our blocks, striking, footwork, all of which is in or primary art but which he gave us new insights for. However if I didn't have my prior training I would never have gotten or understood in a years time. In the end it came out to be a mutual training and learning experience for all of us. Because of Kevin's and mine experience in the FMAs, we would RESPECTFULLY question things. Sometimes our prior training responses would come through and we would get into discussions why we did one thing and he did another and so on.

So I see it from another view, training in a similar style can reap big rewards.

Yes and no. I have always believed, and taught myself to react with what some part of my brain selected in a split second. As you mentioned, when you think about a response, it may slow you down. I wish you luck in learning another art without employing your previous art. I would be a little worried about trying it. I know a lot of practitioners here on MT have done or still do it.

This is true (refering to the Bolded words above). I teach a double stick drill series I call the Defensive Responses (DR), which are five different ways of force to force blocking. We start off with a feed of 8 angles of attack (AOA) and they block 1 DR off of the 8 AOA. Then I feed random and at a faster speed while feeding in added thrusts to stress test. The goal is to stay in the proper DR but often times they will (once they know them) go to a different DR. With often the explanation well "that just seemed more natural" (meaning that was the most logical defense). I kindly tell them well that shows you are learning because in real life it doesn't matter what DR (i.e. style of martial art) you do just make sure it does the job. However please stay in the drill for now.

See my post above to OLDWARRIOR. But if you are going to do it, I am inclined to think starting out with a white belt is not a problem, and may in fact be more appropriate. After all, you are presumably starting out in a different art, and need to learn basics just like everyone else. If you come in wearing a higher belt and started doing dumb things, like most beginners do, you would look worse in my opinion.

This is really left up to the instructor (school) not the student as to what belt to wear. Often times instructors can tell if you have trained before, and they make the determination about what belt to wear.

 

[oldwarrior]

Yes and no. I have always believed, and taught myself to react with what some part of my brain selected in a split second. As you mentioned, when you think about a response, it may slow you down. I wish you luck in learning another art without employing your previous art. I would be a little worried about trying it. I know a lot of practitioners here on MT have done or still do it.

I decided to do it to try and learn how other arts deal with things and if there are similarities which in fact there are and tat is what interests me ...My main and really only Art I have any "level" at is Aikido so going to a Chinese art was where I felt I had to go ...I have no interest other than to see how and why and what an older Art would do compared to what I do (well hope I do) instinctively ...You may not agree but I did it so I would try ad learn more adaptability, not sure if that makes sense lol

 

[oftheherd1]

This is what I was referring to in my earlier post to DVOCHAN, the first question to ask yourself is Why change? For everyone will have different reasons for why they are thinking about changing to a different style. Along with What do they want to get out of it?

I have ranked in three separate arts that are similar or actually came from the same root, but they are all different expressions so to speak. At one point I started in JKD Kali and later I switched over to Presas Arnis under Hock Hochheim who lead me to train with GM Remy Presas in Modern Arnis and GM Ernesto Presas in Kombatan Arnis. Hock's system at that time was a blend of GM Remy's and Ernesto's systems. By training in camps under GM Remy I learned Modern Arnis in a more deeper level than Hock's program, same thing with GM Ernesto in Kombatan. However by continuing to train with Hock helped give me a different perspective of both brother's arts, likewise in training in Kombatan gave me a different perspective of Modern Arnis and Modern Arnis gave me a different perspective of Kombatan. So I ranked in Hock's FMA program, Modern Arnis, and Kombatan. I currently teach a blend like Hock did of both brothers systems and still train with various masters in both Kombatan and Modern Arnis. Each instructor has different ways of doing things different insights which continue my growth as a martial artist.

Likewise I enjoy the FMAs so I will still train with other FMA styles to gain further insights and to test my skills by picking up their drills and working with their people and such. But I had one training experience that lasted a little over a year when myself and one of my top students trained privately under another GM Art Miraflor in his personal style of escrima Mirarada escrima. We emptied our cups (so to speak) and just let him be the guide and teach us what he wanted to in his system. When we started there wasn't any thought of rank it was for me and Kevin just personal growth and like DVOCHAN said "Would it be refreshing just going to class as an open book?" To that I reply HECK YEAH. GM Art was only going to be with us for a couple of months so we just trained and listened to him tell us about a period of history (late 60's mid 70's) when he trained with GM Angle Cabals and GM Leo Giron and it ended up being a little over year. At first I wasn't real impressed with his system (but I knew when to shut up and be a student) so I kept my thoughts to myself and my student as we would analyze his techniques and such. As time went by we had a great time and learned a lot. Some of which I brought back into my classes and continue to teach in my Presas Arnis classes. GM Art gave us another perspective on our blocks, striking, footwork, all of which is in or primary art but which he gave us new insights for. However if I didn't have my prior training I would never have gotten or understood in a years time. In the end it came out to be a mutual training and learning experience for all of us. Because of Kevin's and mine experience in the FMAs, we would RESPECTFULLY question things. Sometimes our prior training responses would come through and we would get into discussions why we did one thing and he did another and so on.

So I see it from another view, training in a similar style can reap big rewards.

I think you are quite correct. Much less chance of confusion as well as more related things to learn.

This is true (refering to the Bolded words above). I teach a double stick drill series I call the Defensive Responses (DR), which are five different ways of force to force blocking. We start off with a feed of 8 angles of attack (AOA) and they block 1 DR off of the 8 AOA. Then I feed random and at a faster speed while feeding in added thrusts to stress test. The goal is to stay in the proper DR but often times they will (once they know them) go to a different DR. With often the explanation well "that just seemed more natural" (meaning that was the most logical defense). I kindly tell them well that shows you are learning because in real life it doesn't matter what DR (i.e. style of martial art) you do just make sure it does the job. However please stay in the drill for now.

Yep!

This is really left up to the instructor (school) not the student as to what belt to wear. Often times instructors can tell if you have trained before, and they make the determination about what belt to wear.

The instructor can certainly control it. But from time to time here I read posts that make it sound more as if the student requested, or sometimes even demanded it and the instructor either agree to have the student put on at least a colored belt. I would not want to, but that is just me.

 

[Buka]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

I'm a foodie. Man, I like to eat. Like to cook, love going to restaurants. I enjoy a lot of different restaurants, different menus. Sometimes trying things I've never had. I've made a few mistakes. Years ago I went to one of the most expensive restaurants in Hawaii. Ordered bouillabaisse. I had never had bouillabaisse. I learned that I would rather eat dirt covered goat's **** than bouillabaisse.

I look at Martial Arts the same way. And who gives a hoot what color belt you wear when training some place? I have a few shirts. I don't always wear the same one to every restaurant. Don't wear the same belt to every dojo, either.

Got me a whole box o belts. The dirty white one is my favorite.

Go eat, my brothers, go eat.

 

[marques]

For those of you with a lot of MA experience, what are the thoughts on starting over, either in a similar style or totally different style, as a white belt? Would it be hard not to flex any BB experience/ego, or would it be refreshing to just go to class as an open book?

At this stage, no.

More is not always better. I got a good background in grappling and striking while I could (enough time). I like to try new things (and I did dozens of times). But at this stage, I would be happy if I can keep a strong core of a few techniques, tactiques and strategies. Fewer (well mastered) is better for self defence and enough for relaxation and general well-being (motivation #1).

More could make may me less effective due to more entropy, at least in the short term, or bad training. And as I do not have much time or options for training... I don’ t think more would help.

Having said that, the right opportunities in the right moment can easily change my mind.

PS: As for ego, I don’t know what it is. I am a beginner everywhere I go (even when do some training back in the organization I got my black belt long time ago). I say my training if someone asks. Or if there are advanced classes and I feel loosing time with the very basics between true beginners...

 

[dvcochran]

This is what I was referring to in my earlier post to DVOCHAN, the first question to ask yourself is Why change? For everyone will have different reasons for why they are thinking about changing to a different style. Along with What do they want to get out of it?

I have ranked in three separate arts that are similar or actually came from the same root, but they are all different expressions so to speak. At one point I started in JKD Kali and later I switched over to Presas Arnis under Hock Hochheim who lead me to train with GM Remy Presas in Modern Arnis and GM Ernesto Presas in Kombatan Arnis. Hock's system at that time was a blend of GM Remy's and Ernesto's systems. By training in camps under GM Remy I learned Modern Arnis in a more deeper level than Hock's program, same thing with GM Ernesto in Kombatan. However by continuing to train with Hock helped give me a different perspective of both brother's arts, likewise in training in Kombatan gave me a different perspective of Modern Arnis and Modern Arnis gave me a different perspective of Kombatan. So I ranked in Hock's FMA program, Modern Arnis, and Kombatan. I currently teach a blend like Hock did of both brothers systems and still train with various masters in both Kombatan and Modern Arnis. Each instructor has different ways of doing things different insights which continue my growth as a martial artist.

Likewise I enjoy the FMAs so I will still train with other FMA styles to gain further insights and to test my skills by picking up their drills and working with their people and such. But I had one training experience that lasted a little over a year when myself and one of my top students trained privately under another GM Art Miraflor in his personal style of escrima Mirarada escrima. We emptied our cups (so to speak) and just let him be the guide and teach us what he wanted to in his system. When we started there wasn't any thought of rank it was for me and Kevin just personal growth and like DVOCHAN said "Would it be refreshing just going to class as an open book?" To that I reply HECK YEAH. GM Art was only going to be with us for a couple of months so we just trained and listened to him tell us about a period of history (late 60's mid 70's) when he trained with GM Angle Cabals and GM Leo Giron and it ended up being a little over year. At first I wasn't real impressed with his system (but I knew when to shut up and be a student) so I kept my thoughts to myself and my student as we would analyze his techniques and such. As time went by we had a great time and learned a lot. Some of which I brought back into my classes and continue to teach in my Presas Arnis classes. GM Art gave us another perspective on our blocks, striking, footwork, all of which is in or primary art but which he gave us new insights for. However if I didn't have my prior training I would never have gotten or understood in a years time. In the end it came out to be a mutual training and learning experience for all of us. Because of Kevin's and mine experience in the FMAs, we would RESPECTFULLY question things. Sometimes our prior training responses would come through and we would get into discussions why we did one thing and he did another and so on.

So I see it from another view, training in a similar style can reap big rewards.



This is true (refering to the Bolded words above). I teach a double stick drill series I call the Defensive Responses (DR), which are five different ways of force to force blocking. We start off with a feed of 8 angles of attack (AOA) and they block 1 DR off of the 8 AOA. Then I feed random and at a faster speed while feeding in added thrusts to stress test. The goal is to stay in the proper DR but often times they will (once they know them) go to a different DR. With often the explanation well "that just seemed more natural" (meaning that was the most logical defense). I kindly tell them well that shows you are learning because in real life it doesn't matter what DR (i.e. style of martial art) you do just make sure it does the job. However please stay in the drill for now.



This is really left up to the instructor (school) not the student as to what belt to wear. Often times instructors can tell if you have trained before, and they make the determination about what belt to wear.

I would never hide my experience to a new instructor. For those who have been in the same MA for a long time I hope the ego reference makes sense. Hard to break the old habits and such.

 

[oldwarrior]

I would never hide my experience to a new instructor. For those who have been in the same MA for a long time I hope the ego reference makes sense. Hard to break the old habits and such.

Hiding anything is in my opinion disrespectful ...any instructor regardless of what he has been told should notice by the way you move that you have some level of skill ...

 

[Deafdude#5]

Hiding anything is in my opinion disrespectful ...any instructor regardless of what he has been told should notice by the way you move that you have some level of skill ...

This is true! When I started doing TKD after almost 20 years, my instructor could tell I was prior experience in another style. He permitted me to stay as long as I was willing to learn & not be a distraction to the class.

 

[oldwarrior]

This is true! When I started doing TKD after almost 20 years, my instructor could tell I was prior experience in another style. He permitted me to stay as long as I was willing to learn & not be a distraction to the class.

Yes you have to be willing to learn After my slight mishap I now try to pair up with other newcomers so I stand less chance of them coming at me in any attack really fast. thereby I do not need to go into auto pilot lol

 

[dvcochran]

This is true! When I started doing TKD after almost 20 years, my instructor could tell I was prior experience in another style. He permitted me to stay as long as I was willing to learn & not be a distraction to the class.

Exactly to my "ego" statement. Your previous experience will surface whether you are up front about it or not.