Speaking To The Head Honcho

[Rusty B]

i cant get a manager with out speaking to a sales associate ,, i cant speak to a ceo with out speaking to his secretary first,, they just dont answer their own phones, id generally rock up at customer servives and taje ut from there, igg i considered it a serious matter, id go straihht to asking for a manager, im going to end up there anyway, why waste time going round the houses with people who cant make decision s

Okay, let's say you're at Home Depot - or, what are the UK equivalent? I believe you have Home Base and B&Q.

Either way, lets say you're there, and you're trying to find a particular socket of a certain size and drive, and you're having trouble. The guy stocking the shelves notices you, and approaches you to ask if he can help you find anything.

Do you decline his offer to help, because he's not the store manager?

 

[jobo]

Okay, let's say you're at Home Depot - or, what are the UK equivalent? I believe you have Home Base and B&Q.

Either way, lets say you're there, and you're trying to find a particular socket of a certain size and drive, and you're having trouble. The guy stocking the shelves notices you, and approaches you to ask if he can help you find anything.

Do you decline his offer to help, because he's not the store manager?

sorry mate thats just fantasy, you can wander roubd bnq for hours and not find any one to ask, or if you do they just look backwards and dony kbpw what a socket is, the thought of anyone actually aproaching you is laughably optimistic

 

[Flying Crane]

Jeezuz, the hierarchy. The schools in which I’ve trained, there was only the head instructor. That person did the teaching and answered the questions. Nobody was afraid to talk to anyone else. I don’t think I could train in a school that had a bunch of layers like I see described.

 

[Rusty B]

Jeezuz, the hierarchy. The schools in which I’ve trained, there was only the head instructor. That person did the teaching and answered the questions. Nobody was afraid to talk to anyone else. I don’t think I could train in a school that had a bunch of layers like I see described.

So... the other yudansha did nothing?

 

[Flying Crane]

So... the other yudansha did nothing?

We were all there training under the same instructor. One could often ask a more senior student, but asking the instructor was never frowned upon; in fact it was encouraged.

In the school where there were actual yudansha, it was a very small group. Enforcing a chain of command/ hierarchy would have simply been awkward. And I was one of the yudansha, but not the most senior.

In the capoeira school, it was a much larger group, and I was one of the senior students at that time. But again there was no weirdness about talking with the head instructor. It’s run like a proper “school” but communication is casual.

In the kung fu school, it is a very small group. The senior students often do the initial teaching for the junior (me) and are always willing to answer questions. But Sifu always says, “ask me any questions.” It is a very informal group, we meet in Sifu’s back yard and communication is very casual.

But none of these were set up with a hierarchy of junior instructors, senior instructors, head instructors, master instructors, owner/“master” type arrangements. I don’t think I could function in such an arrangement.

 

[Rusty B]

We were all there training under the same instructor. One could often ask a more senior student, but asking the instructor was never frowned upon; in fact it was encouraged.

In the school where there were actual yudansha, it was a very small group. Enforcing a chain of command/ hierarchy would have simply been awkward. And I was one of the yudansha, but not the most senior.

In the capoeira school, it was a much larger group, and I was one of the senior students at that time. But again there was no weirdness about talking with the head instructor. It’s run like a proper “school” but communication is casual.

In the kung fu school, it is a very small group. The senior students often do the initial teaching for the junior (me) and are always willing to answer questions. But Sifu always says, “ask me any questions.” It is a very informal group, we meet in Sifu’s back yard and communication is very casual.

But none of these were set up with a hierarchy of junior instructors, senior instructors, head instructors, master instructors, owner/“master” type arrangements. I don’t think I could function in such an arrangement.

So here's the thing: where I train, it's not like that either. There is no rule or policy saying that you're "required" to speak with one of the other instructors first before speaking with the head instructor.

HOWEVER... if one of the instructors, who is perfectly capable of answering the question that you have, is standing a few feet away from you... and you walk right past them to go ask the head instructor instead... that's just bad manners.

I think proper social etiquette dictates that you follow a chain of command, even if there's no rule saying you have to.

 

[jobo]

So here's the thing: where I train, it's not like that either. There is no rule or policy saying that you're "required" to speak with one of the other instructors first before speaking with the head instructor.

HOWEVER... if one of the instructors, who is perfectly capable of answering the question that you have, is standing a few feet away from you... and you walk right past them to go ask the head instructor instead... that's just bad manners.

I think proper social etiquette dictates that you follow a chain of command, even if there's no rule saying you have to.

well its some what worse to ask the junior instructor and then go and askk the head ibstructer when you dont like the answer

 

[Flying Crane]

So here's the thing: where I train, it's not like that either. There is no rule or policy saying that you're "required" to speak with one of the other instructors first before speaking with the head instructor.

HOWEVER... if one of the instructors, who is perfectly capable of answering the question that you have, is standing a few feet away from you... and you walk right past them to go ask the head instructor instead... that's just bad manners.

I think proper social etiquette dictates that you follow a chain of command, even if there's no rule saying you have to.

Where I have trained, that is not an issue. Questions directly to the head instructor were always welcome, from any student. Nobody had any awkwardness about it and it wasn’t bad manners.

I always respected my senior classmates and would ask them questions if it was more convenient, meaning the head instructor wasn’t immediately available, was in the other room or something. But if the head teacher was available, that is where the questions were directed, by everyone. The head instructor is the person we had all signed up to learn from. In every school I attended, that teacher was always there, doing the teaching. They would not assign certain classes for junior teachers or something. The only time a substitute ran the class was if the head instructor was away or was unable to be in class for a session. But that was rare. I occasionally acted as substitute teacher.

It’s just a different atmosphere in a school.

 

[skribs]

well its some what worse to ask the junior instructor and then go and askk the head ibstructer when you dont like the answer

That's been the standard procedure anywhere I've ever been. The junior instructor will either get confirmation that they were correct, or will learn something.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That's been the standard procedure anywhere I've ever been. The junior instructor will either get confirmation that they were correct, or will learn something.

Yeah, as long as you're polite about it, I don't see the issue. No one knows everything.
There are kata that I've done for 15 years before learning that I was doing something technical wrong, or multiple instructors will debate about what's 'correct' (ie: front-two knuckle punch vs. thrust punch).

 

[PhotonGuy]

If you're a cashier at Walmart, and you have a question, do you go track down one of the Waltons and ask them?

If you're a fry cook at a corporate-owned McDonald's, do you track down the CEO if you have a question?

You gotta follow the chain of command.

Walmart is a big chain, you're not going to have contact with the CEO when you're just a cashier.

A dojo on the other hand is much smaller and it shouldn't be too hard to get in contact with the head instructor.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Maybe, but the other instructors are there for a reason.

The OP's question is something that doesn't just apply to MA clubs. This is something that applies to all structured organizations. If you have a question about something, the first person you should ask is the lowest ranking person that you believe is qualified to answer it. And then you move up, if they can't answer your question.

Again, that's standard protocol in any organizational structure.

Maybe in a really big MA club you would do that but in a small club there is no reason you shouldn't talk to the head instructor, people do it all the time.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Your comparison would be like if I trained silat and went looking for Dan Inosanto to answer my questions.

Is Dan Insanto the top instructor of your school? If so then there is no reason you shouldn't ask him.

 

[PhotonGuy]

No, there is nothing wrong with it. That said, it may not be necessary and much easier to judy ask the person next to you or the person leading class.
Like others have said there usually isn't a huge chain of command at the average MA school. If you are asking about talking to someone at your systems corporate level that could get delicate and perceived as stepping on toes if not done in an appropriate manner.

Here is why its usually best to speak to the head honcho if you're unsure about something. Ever play the game "telephone" as a child? You might've played it in school or in church or in camp. Its played with a bunch of people where you form a circle and somebody starts with a message that they whisper to the person next to them who then whispers it to the person next to them who then whispers it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes completely around the circle. Usually by the time it goes completely around the message is quite different.

The point of the game is to show how things were done before Alexander Graham Bell's invention of the telephone, in the old days that was your telephone, you would give a message to one person who would then give it to somebody else who would then give it to somebody else until it finally got to the person who you needed to get it to. But often by then the message would be quite different and it would cause problems. Anyway, that's why its always best to get information directly from the source or as directly as you can get it. That's why its always best to speak to the head honcho if you can, so the information won't change the way it does in the game "telephone" and be wrong.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Is Dan Insanto the top instructor of your school? If so then there is no reason you shouldn't ask him.

Yup, I agree that's my point. The comparison being made was comparing talking to your head instructor to talking to the CEO of Walmart. Which I'm suggesting is more apropos to a silat practitioner contacting the head of their style rather than the head of your school with an issue. Both of which are unnecessary, but it says nothing about whether or not it's appropriate to talk to your school's head instructor.

 

[dvcochran]

Here is why its usually best to speak to the head honcho if you're unsure about something. Ever play the game "telephone" as a child? You might've played it in school or in church or in camp. Its played with a bunch of people where you form a circle and somebody starts with a message that they whisper to the person next to them who then whispers it to the person next to them who then whispers it to the person next to them and so forth until it goes completely around the circle. Usually by the time it goes completely around the message is quite different.

The point of the game is to show how things were done before Alexander Graham Bell's invention of the telephone, in the old days that was your telephone, you would give a message to one person who would then give it to somebody else who would then give it to somebody else until it finally got to the person who you needed to get it to. But often by then the message would be quite different and it would cause problems. Anyway, that's why its always best to get information directly from the source or as directly as you can get it. That's why its always best to speak to the head honcho if you can, so the information won't change the way it does in the game "telephone" and be wrong.

What you are referring to is singular transference of information where data is passed from point to point only one time. That is not at all how martial arts work where information is passed and verified from instructor to student hundreds, thousands, and even 10's of thousands of times. So the degree of integrity in the information is quite high, even sometimes when it is translated from a mid level color belt for information relative to their rank.
Trust is a two way street. Until you have witnessed or encountered reasons not to trust the people you workout with things will go much easier if you have a little faith. In today's state of instant information it is very easy to doubt everything. And that can sure take the fun out of learning something.

 

[dvcochran]

Maybe in a really big MA club you would do that but in a small club there is no reason you shouldn't talk to the head instructor, people do it all the time.

So why all the cat and mouse? If you have need to speak with your head instructor privately just go ahead and do it. If, on the other hand, it is a general question about your class/style/system it would usually be easier for both sides to ask a higher ranking student or assistant instructor. As a rule the higher up a person is in a school or system or any kind of business for that matter the more they have on their plate.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yup, I agree that's my point. The comparison being made was comparing talking to your head instructor to talking to the CEO of Walmart. Which I'm suggesting is more apropos to a silat practitioner contacting the head of their style rather than the head of your school with an issue. Both of which are unnecessary, but it says nothing about whether or not it's appropriate to talk to your school's head instructor.

Most dojos or martial arts schools in general are independently owned and run. Even if they do teach a common style such as Tae Kwon Do, or in your example Silat, they don't belong to some bigger corporation that "owns" the style. Walmart on the other hand is a big corporation which has multiple locations throughout the world but they all belong to the company. Most dojos aren't like that. Yes you will sometimes find chains of martial arts schools that are all run by the same company but independently owned dojos are much more common in which case you will have direct contact with the top instructor/owner if you go to such a dojo, so talking to him shouldn't be a problem.

 

[PhotonGuy]

What you are referring to is singular transference of information where data is passed from point to point only one time. That is not at all how martial arts work where information is passed and verified from instructor to student hundreds, thousands, and even 10's of thousands of times. So the degree of integrity in the information is quite high, even sometimes when it is translated from a mid level color belt for information relative to their rank.

Even so, there can be differences and there can be misunderstandings. Although the information will be less jumbled as with the game telephone, there still can be errors and the slightest difference can result in the wrong information being told. That did sometimes happen at my dojo, the first dojo that I started seriously training at. That's why its a good idea to check with the top instructor if you're not sure about something.

Trust is a two way street. Until you have witnessed or encountered reasons not to trust the people you workout with things will go much easier if you have a little faith. In today's state of instant information it is very easy to doubt everything. And that can sure take the fun out of learning something.

An assistant instructor or a higher ranking student might have your best interests in mind but might still give you the wrong information, not on purpose but because people make mistakes. If you want to rely on the information from an assistant instructor or a higher ranking student that's fine, unless the information is wrong, but there is also nothing wrong with clarifying stuff with the top instructor is what Im saying.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Most dojos or martial arts schools in general are independently owned and run. Even if they do teach a common style such as Tae Kwon Do, or in your example Silat, they don't belong to some bigger corporation that "owns" the style. Walmart on the other hand is a big corporation which has multiple locations throughout the world but they all belong to the company. Most dojos aren't like that. Yes you will sometimes find chains of martial arts schools that are all run by the same company but independently owned dojos are much more common in which case you will have direct contact with the top instructor/owner if you go to such a dojo, so talking to him shouldn't be a problem.

That's why I compared it to a specific branch where it is similar to Walmart. To explain what would be an accurate comparison.