sparring vs chi sau

[PeaceWarrior]

I was just wondering, what do you guys think are the good and bad points of sparring and chi sau? Do you spar or just do chi sau (I mean you, personally)? I mean honestly in a fight youre not going to stand there in one place and stick hands with somebody, so I can see how sparring would help hone your skills. Im just curious because in my school it seems like we work more on technique and applications rather than any kind of sparring...

 

[ed-swckf]

I was just wondering, what do you guys think are the good and bad points of sparring and chi sau? Do you spar or just do chi sau (I mean you, personally)? I mean honestly in a fight youre not going to stand there in one place and stick hands with somebody, so I can see how sparring would help hone your skills. Im just curious because in my school it seems like we work more on technique and applications rather than any kind of sparring...

Chi sau doesn't assume you are going to stand there in one place and stick hands, further more, you should move in chi sau. chi sau and gor sau, a free flowing chi sau where both attack and defend at will, are both really useful for getting used to the clash of hands and reacting to any pressure on the arms. Before you get into that postion you have either thrown attacks to get contact or thrown arms up to get in the way of incoming arms, its in that incident your chi sau training will really shine. Sparring is a very viable part of training also, some believe its so important it should be done very regularly. Personally i've done a lot of sparring and in my life right now i have no really need to be sparring a lot, i've learnt a lot from it but i feel i can learn a lot more in other manners now. I train with people who spar a lot and can understand the validity of sparring, if you feel its something you want to do then i suggest doing it. You can play with sparring on many levels and my personal opinion is people should engage in it on some level at least, its great exposure.

 

[PeaceWarrior]

Chi sau doesn't assume you are going to stand there in one place and stick hands, further more, you should move in chi sau. chi sau and gor sau, a free flowing chi sau where both attack and defend at will, are both really useful for getting used to the clash of hands and reacting to any pressure on the arms. Before you get into that postion you have either thrown attacks to get contact or thrown arms up to get in the way of incoming arms, its in that incident your chi sau training will really shine. Sparring is a very viable part of training also, some believe its so important it should be done very regularly. Personally i've done a lot of sparring and in my life right now i have no really need to be sparring a lot, i've learnt a lot from it but i feel i can learn a lot more in other manners now. I train with people who spar a lot and can understand the validity of sparring, if you feel its something you want to do then i suggest doing it. You can play with sparring on many levels and my personal opinion is people should engage in it on some level at least, its great exposure.

Wow, cool...your answer was very insightful. I can tell you have quite a few years of experience, much more than mine of barely just over a year. Most of the chi sau Ive seen and done was stationary, although I have seen a couple online where they moved quite a bit. Im sure at higher levels there is more room for play. Regardless, I have had hardly any real chi sau experience, (well it certainly is "real" but it is restricted to certain techniques in a classroom setting) and admit I have not seen much chi sau. Our class is mixed levels of experience, and I think the chi sau training is more for the higher levels. Yeah I definetly know what you mean about sparring as good exposure. The other day I met this MMArtist who is pretty good at boxing, and we've sparred a couple of times and I have learned a lot just from that. I love training!

 

[Selfcritical]

Wow, cool...your answer was very insightful. I can tell you have quite a few years of experience, much more than mine of barely just over a year. Most of the chi sau Ive seen and done was stationary, although I have seen a couple online where they moved quite a bit. Im sure at higher levels there is more room for play. Regardless, I have had hardly any real chi sau experience, (well it certainly is "real" but it is restricted to certain techniques in a classroom setting) and admit I have not seen much chi sau. Our class is mixed levels of experience, and I think the chi sau training is more for the higher levels. Yeah I definetly know what you mean about sparring as good exposure. The other day I met this MMArtist who is pretty good at boxing, and we've sparred a couple of times and I have learned a lot just from that. I love training!

The one thing i see from a lot of WC and JKD guys who do more chi sau than sparring is this impression that trapping range is something sustainable, rather than something you enter and exit on. People who are used to squaring up and continously deflecting at medium range seem very suprised at how quickly trapping range becomes the clinch.

 

[Jelik]

Personally, I think there is not enough actual sparring in most WC clubs. The reason I say this is chi sao is fantastic for checking energy, find holes, set ups etc, however what is missing (for me) is that you don't learn how to close the gap (ie you start connected), and if you were to have a proper fight out there, you need to understand how to deal with kicks, closing / bridging the gap, dealing with someone tanking you etc.

Just a personal opinion Both are great - both should be done equally.

Stu

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Chi sao as a training tool is used by me as a bridge between slow, idealized, choreographed execution examples and free sparring.

If you look at it as there being only 2 ranges (engaged and disengaged) and from there subcategorizing into levels, you see that the actual executions in chi sao are to be done when engaged.

Sparring will teach you how to seek the bridge (Chum Kiu) and close the gap. From then on, use the teachings learned in Sil Lum Tao. Distancing at the disengaged state leaves also room to just not engage in a fight, and in survival situations, it may be useful to have that option and to know what to do.

Chi Sao training implies that you are already engaged and at arms reach, and helps you identify the movements of your attacker so they can be anticipated and controlled by you using the sensitivity developed in the exercise.

These cannot be as easily trained in sperring since you can hardly conciously calibrate what is going on.

With chi sao training you have the opportunity to aclimate yourself to that range where panic, fear and adrenalin is the norm and learn how to handle and control your attacker.

That means that Chi sao training should be evolved to higher levels of contact and pressure, yet keep the controlled aspect to be able to learn from the exercise.

Sparring tend to easily turn into dualing mentality, which is not the best to have in ANY situation, since it causes "tunnel vision".

So In sparring when you engage, you should use the skills learned in Chi Sao and apply them. That should be the goal of Wing Chun.

Unfortunately, you must take care NOT to do Chi sao one way, and then spar in another, since the mentalities and dynamics seem outwardly so different.

When that happens, my Sifu calls it "loosing the skill", or "loosing the art".

Hope that helps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Si-Je]

We spar and practice chi sau at our school.
Chi sau has many practical applications to a fight. The way of intercepting fist, is largely misunderstood. We don't train to try to get the opponent into a trap hands situation, we feel where the opponents force is going and roll with that energy to do them in. Whether it's a trap, punching, leg kick, or all of the above at the same time. If you go into in premeditated, it will fail, you can't force it. You have to adapt to your opponent immediately and flow with their force.
To intercept fist, you don't "try" to grab, latch, or trap so much as intercept the strike with deflection and immediately keep your arm contact with that limb. Hense, chi sau starts.

ex: And opponent does a quick boxers jab, pulling the punch back quickly, use tan sau and step into the fist following the fist as it retracts back to punch (jab) a second time. thus, keeping contact at the wrist or arm, intercepting fist, so you can adapt to the opponent's next move, not force technique on a spontaneous attacker.
You learn chi sau in a 'regimented" fashion to teach you the techniques available, not to try to force specific techniques on an attacker. Their supposed to be there in your arsenal for use when the situation calls for it. So, in a way, after awhile, chi sau becomes sparring. And after awhile you will use kicks and leg sensitivity in chi sau.

As for kicks and deflecting them. That's what the legs are for. WC kicks will deflect or just plain stop most other kinds of kicking. Garn sau can also be used for higher (head high) kicks. All this "bridging of the gap" is accomplished by simply stepping into your opponents attack and guard or space while deflecting. It will happen more naturally if you think forward thought while defending and deflecting.

"offence is defense, defense is offence. Each is the cause and result of the other."

 

[monji112000]

if you want to learn to fight you have to fight.

Chi sao isn't fighting.

You can get away with learning allot about fighting by drills and sparring.. but its not going to teach you everything. Somepeople don't allways have to look to learn to fight. Wing Chun is about allot more than fighting.

JMO

 

[Si-Je]

Learn to fight without fighting.

"Practice non-action
work without doing.
See simplicity in the complicated
achieve greatness in little things."
-Lao Tsu

"Therefore those who would conquer must yield,
And those who conquer do so because they yield."
-Lao Tsu

 

[Changhfy]

Wow, there were quite a few great answers!

In my opinion Chi Sau represents a time frame, this time frame isnt just based on the bong, tan and fuk concepts but its based on structural position and principles. So in my opinion Chi Sau is more than applicable in a San Da situation. Being that to practise Chi Sau as stated above is not just sitting in the Yi ji kuem ying ma and using the rolling energy but whats more important is the concept behind it not the way the drill is expressed.

So generally when we practise we practise three different time frames the Kiu Sau time frame, the Chi Kiu time frame and the Chi Sau time frame each of these represent different areas of where you are in correlation to where the opponent is. Then from the understanding of these three time frames we then link them directly to San Da.


I hope this helps.



take care,
Chang

 

[monji112000]

learn to fight without fighting?

is that like speak without speaking?
cook without cooking?
maybe its more related to the whole , tea cup and being like water bruce lee talked about? Or is it the one about being like a finger pointing straight to the moon?

I guess I am slow.

All I know is that you can't swim without ever swimming.. you will either float or drown.

 

[Si-Je]

If you stifen up while in the water you will sink.
If you fight an opponents force by responding with force you are in a "arm wrestling match".

And thus, fight without fighting is essencially, I absorb and redirect your force instead of trying to match it. If I try to match the force of a stronger opponent I lose before I start.

These phrases that Bruce Lee quoted is simply the Tao. He was a philosophy major, and hence the title of his book, "the Tao of Jeet Kune Do".

This is some of the things that I have learned from learning Chi Sau. To flow with force instead of trying to match it and to bend instead of stiffening up and being collapsed by a stronger opponent. Thus you give you yield to the force of an attack so you can conquer your attacker.
nature of water and all that really has practical meaning. Water is soft and weak, yet it digs tunnels through mountians, shapes the continents, and always followes the path of least resistance.
Fighting without "fighting".

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Taoist philosophy and thought permeate arts that are called Chuan Fa, as Wing Chun is. Also, Chan buhddism and Confusianism have great influence.

reading the Tao Te Ching should be essential reading. As also Sun Tzu's Art of War, and several otehr classics.

These readings will shed light on the reasons for the philosophy of training in Wing Chun.

Yip Chun wrote on this.

Thinking on these terms changes tends to change your strategies towards fighting. To what and to which extent, depends on that level of understanding and experience.

Testosterone mandates Dominance and Conquering.

Tao seeks to find balance, survive, keep going the your way.

For example, figthing someone with similar force (yin-yin) will yield more force used; more energy used. Using yang to "fight" the yin balances things out. Energy is conserved. No more yin excess.

How can this be applied exactly to combat?

Interesting eercise.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[graychuan]

professormental wrote...
'Chi Sao training implies that you are already engaged and at arms reach, and helps you identify the movements of your attacker so they can be anticipated and controlled by you using the sensitivity developed in the exercise.'


We are definitely on the same page here. It is a fact that the hand is quicker than the eye. Even with sparring experience and the reflexes it builds, if a fighters skills are based on the eyes tracking the attacks to the body and head then the eyes will eventually fall behind. The whole purpose of sensitivity training (chi sau) is to learn how to use bridge contact to track your opponents weapons accurately without relying on your eyes. When you eyes start to fall behind the 'flinch effect' kicks in and you tense up and all of your structure is out the window. On the flip side, sensitivity doesn't work if it isn't supported by a solid defensive structure. This makes perfect sense to me.
When doing chi sau with my Sifu, he can actually detect my intent before I move and use that as a springboard into an attack. I have only been training Wing Chun for six months but I'm a black belt martial artist and Ive studied Kempo for 12 years now.
!!!!!WING CHUN IS DEFINITLEY WHAT I'VE BEEN MISSING!!!!

Sincerly,
:asian: C

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Research has found (since early sixties, maybe late fifties) that we possess about 50 different "senses". Given time I can find the reference in my archives, if requested.

"Sensitivity" training is designed to tap into many of these senses, specifically the propioceptives. The body, programmed with structure, strategy and tactics for certain stimuli, can "read" the "intent" of the attacker.

This comes with a relaxed, firm structure that keeps you in control of your body, and that of the attacker. Tenseness reduces propioceptive sensitivity and reduces control. Also uses up more energy than needed.

Seems almost magical, yet it can be demosntrated repeatedly. and quite effortlessly after a while.

It is what is known as "non declining skills". This is one of the goals of Wing Chun, as so adequately incarnated in Yip Chun, Lo Kam Man, and many others.


I am very happy that you've found good training that makes sense to you and helps you enjoy life more.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Si-Je]

My husband and I are very curious about these 50 senses your talking about. Could you dig up more on this information out of your archives, please?
I've been practicing chi sau for about a year now, and would really like to know more about this research.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!

This research was done in the late 1950's, and found that we can separate many more paramenters than just vision, hearing and touch. each has independent information that coded into the neurology/synaptic pathways creates very minute detail differentiation.

We have specialized nerve endings that detect individually temperature, pressure, etc. This is easily found. Here's something to think about while I get the primary references... it's gonna take me some time... hella busy, yet I was looking for it anyway.

Unconciously, you notice and process such an immense amount of information, that training to conciously filter which info is useful and which is not is a fundamental problem. Conciously, research finds that we can retain from 5 to 9 "chunks" of infomration.

The bigger the pieces of information that you can grasp and process conciously, the more information you can conciously experience.

Interestingly enough, recently it has been found that in some animal's neural tissue magnetite is present, so there are senses for magnetic fields. Trials for human location or these are pending though...

More later... christmas cleaning!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[bcbernam777]

I was just wondering, what do you guys think are the good and bad points of sparring and chi sau? Do you spar or just do chi sau (I mean you, personally)? I mean honestly in a fight youre not going to stand there in one place and stick hands with somebody, so I can see how sparring would help hone your skills. Im just curious because in my school it seems like we work more on technique and applications rather than any kind of sparring...

Each has their place

 

[Si-Je]

Sparring is very helpful, we spar at our school, but we also emphasise chi sau very much. You'll utilize the techniques and principles of chi sau in sparring once you've become comfortable with chi sau.
In essence, you ideally want the first initial contact with the opponent to use sensitivity and sticky hands to keep pressure on them so they cannot counter and end the match quickly.
I definately recomend that you practice using chi sau concepts and techniques while sparring.
The trick is not to force the techniques. Let the opportunities arise in sparring and learn to flow with what your opponent gives you.
Chi Sau will definately improve your sparring techique, and sparring will improve the spontenaety of your chi sau.

 

[monji112000]

of course Chi sao will help and improve things.. but Chi sao isn't fighting. Its not going to make you a good fighter. In order to be a good fighter you have the timing, reaction, *distance down in a relatively good manner.

So many elements that make fighting much more than Chi sao, and if you don't work on that heavily outside of Chi sao.. then you are going to not be good at fighting.. unless you have allot of natural fighting abilities.


Allot of people focus only on short distance.. I personally think this is big mistake. Most fights start from a further distance than people are training, and only being able to fight from a short distance is a dangerous perspective. JMO