South American Martial Arts?

[Flying Crane]

KIpura originates from angola just like Brazil, angola was under portuguese rule for 300+ years. The kipura of angola and the capoeira of brazil arent too much different the only difference is the capoeira style has more dancing than the kipura style because martial arts were outlawed by the portuguese so they disguised the martial art into a dance form. If you want to see true martial arts of brazilian origin there's this show called called Last Man Standing the very first episode deals with kalapalo wrestling 6 foreigners go to the kalapalo to train and compete in kalapalo wrestling.

I don't believe any modern authority on capoeira believes that the art is a simple transplant. Of course its African roots are recognized. Various African arts show some similarites. Nobody disputes that. But Capoeira developed in Brazil, from these various elements that were brought together there.

 

[Taker87]

Others claim it to be of brazilian roots when it in fact is of japanese roots

 

[Taker87]

Yeah but Kipura(capoeira's) roots go back to angola not brazil

 

[Flying Crane]

Kipura(Capoeira) deals with empty hand techniques, weaponcraft, dancing, and healing so its an all around martial art in my book

It sounds like you are referencing Kipura as a distinct Angolan martial arts. I don't know anything about that art, but it is not the same as Capoeira. It may have similarities. It may share some roots. But it is not the same art. Capoeira is not simply transplanted Kipura.

 

[Taker87]

I've studied the art and even know somebody who practices it. It's roots simply go back to angola, just like karate's roots go back to japan and pankrationK(panmachia's) roots go back to greece

 

[lklawson]

So the point is you cant claim it to be of brazilian origin if it's roots go back to japan.

You are misunderstanding the point being argued (by those arguing for it).

What they are claiming is that, regardless of BJJ's Japanese "roots" (which everyone admits and accepts), the art is now Brazillian due to the fact that it has diverged from its Judo parent so significantly that they've now "made it their own."

This is the position they're arguing from and, to be fair to them, they have historic (semi-mythical at least) precedant. Is (the various flavors of) "Kung Fu" Chinese are are they actually Indian via Bodi Daharma? Is Karate an Okinowan art or is it Chinese because it (supposedly) has its roots in Chinese Kung Fu (or is Karate also Indian)?

Is Boxing English, Roman, Greek, or Egyptian (depending on how strong you feel the precedant link is and how far back you want to trace it)?

Is the Khopesh a middle-easter weapon or is it Western (Greek) via Alexander?

This is the point they are arguing from.

Personally, I don't really care who thinks BJJ is either Japanese or Brazillian. But it's important to understand the arguments being made for each view.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
--
Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism
http://www.lulu.com/lawson

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts

 

[lklawson]

Others claim it to be of brazilian roots when it in fact is of japanese roots

BJJ?

I've not seen anybody with any credibility in the BJJ comunity claim that BJJ's roots are Brazillian and not Japanese. Heck, even the official BJJ web site & FAQ recognizes the Judo origin.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
--
Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism
http://www.lulu.com/lawson

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts

 

[lklawson]

and pankrationK(panmachia's) roots go back to greece

That depends on who you ask and your definition.

From my best research, modern Pankration is a modern reconstruction of what is believed to be classic Pankration. (re)Invented in the '70s, ims.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
--
Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism
http://www.lulu.com/lawson

Western Martial Arts - http://cbd.atspace.com/

"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas speaking of rec.martial-arts

 

[Flying Crane]

I've studied the art and even know somebody who practices it. It's roots simply go back to angola, just like karate's roots go back to japan and pankrationK(panmachia's) roots go back to greece

You've studied what, capoeira or kipura?

As I've stated, capoeira's roots in Africa are not disputed.

 

[Taker87]

They go back to angola not brazil, Have you seen original brazilian martial arts? It's completely differently, Therefore kipura(capoeira's roots) go back to angola rather than brazil

 

[Taker87]

Wushu was around long before bodhi dharma went to china and established the shaolin buddhist temple. Karate was developed in okinawa by okinawans not the chinese or japanese.

 

[Taker87]

Tell me what culture doesnt have boxing incorporated into their system? Kipura was brought over by angolans brought to brazil who intermarried with brazilians calling it capoeira it was used by angolans to resist against portuguese conquistadores

 

[Taker87]

Go to www.xilam.org or go to youtube.com, type in xilam and search for it. That's mexico's "original" martial art

 

[DFoat]

Does anyone know of any practitioners of Xilam, or any other pre-Hispanic martial arts.

 

[Taker87]

Yeah but Jiu Jitsu is Japan's martial art not brazil's. There are even 700 styles of known classical Jiu Jitsu which is Japan's "original" martial art. The Gracies went to Japan to learn Jiu Jitsu, then came back to Brazil, modified it into "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu".

 

[Taker87]

Alex Bushman is one of the masters of the martial art Rumi Maki which is the martial art of Kichwa nation (Peru). It is claimed that even the mighty incas used trained in this martial art.

 

[Taker87]

Modern Pankration is based off techniques depicted on ancient vases, statues, etc., however Jim Arvanitis trained in Judo, Boxing, Greco Roman Wrestling, before he did research to recreate pankration.

 

[Taker87]

Rumi Maki (Kichwa) martial art peru.

 

[Taker87]

So it's like American style karate as opposed to Okinawan Karate the point is the art sprung from Okinawa with the okinawan martial arts ti and tegumi, which the chinese brought martial influence and modified it into Kode ti, and the japanese brought influence creating Karate and american soldiers in WW2 stationed on okinawa learned karate bringing it back to america and modifying it creating "american Karate". The point is you have to look back to the roots of martial art and see where it originally sprung from.

 

[Taker87]

Well you misunderstood when I said the arts have roots on them and evolve over time.