some styles hard to classify

[xiongnu_luohan]

I think some styles are hard to classify in terms of northern vs. southern.

I've never done CLF but I know it's techinically a southern style. But to me it seems more northern in flavor. I say this because of the stances that look northern to me. Also there are lots of flying kicks including tornado kicks etc. From what I know of CLF there was some exchange of students between one prominent CLF teacher and gu ruzhang(ku yu cheong) back in the day. They are different arts but yet CLF does seem to use all of those northern kicking elements.

I actually think the same about Jow Ga. From what I know Jow Ga originated with an overseas chinese monk( living in indonesia ). But one of the major roots of the style was northern shaolin. Jow Ga seems to also have a lot of tiger stuff but then again isn't there a shandong(shantung) black tiger style out there? Anyway to me it looks like Jow Ga has a northern foundation as well.

Then there are styles from the middle( shanghai region ) that to me also look northern. In particular my jhong law horn looks very northern to me, not just that the horse stance( ma bu ) has a northern flavor but the way they use the jin(jing) seems so relaxed and fluid that it reminds me of northern boxing.

Then of course we have the western styles like tibetan & emei(omei) styles. I actually know very little about these styles but I've heard they are hard to classify because they have a few long-armed hand sets as well.

No disrespect intended toward any cma or anything mentioned here. I really admire CLF, Jow Ga, and MJLH. I've never done those styles but I'm a big fan of all 3.

I guess it just frustrates me because the way we sometimes think about northern vs. southern isn't all that useful IMO. There are so many exceptions and as I've mentioned even styles that everyone sees as southern can still have a northern-type hand set in their curriculum. I guess the 'butterfly palms' set in hung ga would be an example of this.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There are multiple ways to classify CMA styles
Northern/Southern
Internal/External
Buddhist/Taoist/Muslim
Hard/Soft

And there are multiple variations on the theme and in some cases within multiple family styles.

Look at Chen Style Laojis Yilu and look at Sun style and you see both similarities and great differences and Taiji is considered Northern, Internal and Taoist.

Also there are origin issues in multiple arts Wing Chun in my opinion is a very god example of a Southern style and yet there is a possibility that there is a Northern origin or influence as well.

Some styles changed their names in order to hide form the emperor at the time. Many of the lineages are not hard coded if you will they have in some cases have documented origins and/or legendary origin and some have no documented origin but appear in a historical document as being used, Xingyiquan for example is one of these.

Bottom-line they are Chinese Martial Arts and they have been around for awhile intermixing so in some cases it is hard to classify them and it others it is easy.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Its not really all that surprising that confusion reigns in the CMA in this regard. While some styles are exemplars of the Northern/Southern distinction, like Changquan and Hung Gar. But China is a big place and has been occupied for a very long time.

I like to think of the CMA as having a number of generative areas. There is the north and south, of course, but there is also the Emei region and the western deserts, the Yangzi valley and the northeast. Each seems to have a distinct flavour to its martial arts. However, four of them are neighbours and influences from one region to another are inevitable.

I have noticed that the mixing of influences tends to be from north to south in a broad sense. Its not all that surprising if you take into account the chronology of the CMA, some of the oldest styles are considered northern and the Huanghe valley has benn inhabited for a very long time. It is the centre of Chinese culture.

My style of bagua is from the Emei region but that is not where it originated. It is likely that bagua is a northern style originally. It was certainly further developed in Beijing though it was probably not created there.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think some styles are hard to classify in terms of northern vs. southern.

I guess it just frustrates me because the way we sometimes think about northern vs. southern isn't all that useful IMO. There are so many exceptions and as I've mentioned even styles that everyone sees as southern can still have a northern-type hand set in their curriculum. I guess the 'butterfly palms' set in hung ga would be an example of this.

I personally don't think it's a classification that is very meaningful. I think if is as simply knowing the region where the art came from, and little else. There are just too many exceptions to the rule, for the rule to have much meaning. Don't worry about it. Most things in life cannot be pigeon-holed.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Couldn't they be part of the "hard to classify" class?

 

[funnytiger]

I actually think the same about Jow Ga. From what I know Jow Ga originated with an overseas chinese monk( living in indonesia ). But one of the major roots of the style was northern shaolin. Jow Ga seems to also have a lot of tiger stuff but then again isn't there a shandong(shantung) black tiger style out there? Anyway to me it looks like Jow Ga has a northern foundation as well.

If we are talking about Jow Ga, also known as Hung Tao Choy Mei, it is definitely 90% Southern, with about 10% Northern flare. Jow Ga is a mixture of Hung Ga (southern), Choy Ga (southern) with a little bit of Sil Lum (Northern) thrown in there.

Jow Ga is a family style so it was founded by Jow Lung and then later with his brothers it was spread throughout Hong Kong, China and then later to Indonesia, etc.

MOST of Jow Ga is very heavily influenced by its Hung Ga roots.

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it is as wrong as wrong could be... no offense.

 

[xiongnu_luohan]

If we are talking about Jow Ga, also known as Hung Tao Choy Mei, it is definitely 90% Southern, with about 10% Northern flare. Jow Ga is a mixture of Hung Ga (southern), Choy Ga (southern) with a little bit of Sil Lum (Northern) thrown in there.

Jow Ga is a family style so it was founded by Jow Lung and then later with his brothers it was spread throughout Hong Kong, China and then later to Indonesia, etc.

MOST of Jow Ga is very heavily influenced by its Hung Ga roots.

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but it is as wrong as wrong could be... no offense.

Sorry about that. I thought I read that somewhere but even if I did it's obviously wrong. BTW can you say anything about the northern aspect of jow ga? I know you said it's 90% southern but what is northern about it?

 

[funnytiger]

Sorry about that. I thought I read that somewhere but even if I did it's obviously wrong. BTW can you say anything about the northern aspect of jow ga? I know you said it's 90% southern but what is northern about it?

No harm, no foul.

They say the Northern part of Jow Ga is typically it's kicks, which is especially apparent in our usage of lin wan guerk (Tornado Kick).

Here is a video of my Si Hing doing one of our forms, Fa Kuen, where in the beginning and the end you can see lin wan guerk.

Now, some schools (depending on lineage, location, teacher's preference) will have much fancier kicks that they practice. All Jow Ga, just different interpretations and practices.

This is a video my Si Hing performing Siu Fok Fu, one of the core forms, and here you can really see the Hung Ga influence on the style.

I do agree with Flying Crane though. There are way too many exceptions to the rule for the classifications of "southern" and "northern" too have much meaning.

They say Jow Ga's kicks are northern because they are "flashier" and go above the waist. But there are plenty of exceptions to the rule that northern kicks are fancier and southern kicks are kept below the waist.

- ft

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ahh it’s all northern anyways the south is just jealous. (Xue Sheng runs and ducks for cover)

This being said and I am NOT serious about that, even though I do train Northern styles.

I agree it is very hard to classify by region these days and be able to make a clear cut statement that this style is 100% Southern or this style is 100% Northern if for no other reason than the variations of the root style, again look at all the Taiji styles out there now.

But historically Chinese use to say they were from where their father was from no matter where they were living so in some cases it is best to look at the root so any style if you wish to classify it as Northern or Southern. But after 1000 years can you really tell what the root is?

 

[xiongnu_luohan]

No harm, no foul.

They say the Northern part of Jow Ga is typically it's kicks, which is especially apparent in our usage of lin wan guerk (Tornado Kick).

Here is a video of my Si Hing doing one of our forms, Fa Kuen, where in the beginning and the end you can see lin wan guerk.

Now, some schools (depending on lineage, location, teacher's preference) will have much fancier kicks that they practice. All Jow Ga, just different interpretations and practices.

This is a video my Si Hing performing Siu Fok Fu, one of the core forms, and here you can really see the Hung Ga influence on the style.

I do agree with Flying Crane though. There are way too many exceptions to the rule for the classifications of "southern" and "northern" too have much meaning.

They say Jow Ga's kicks are northern because they are "flashier" and go above the waist. But there are plenty of exceptions to the rule that northern kicks are fancier and southern kicks are kept below the waist.

- ft

Thanks for the clips, those are really good!! Well done. I guess I can see the choy ga influence because some of those corkscrewing strikes remind me a lot of choy lay fut which also has choy ga has an influence. Having said that I don't really know anything about choy ga itself. Your sihing's ma bu even seems a little northern to me, perhaps that's the siu lum influence you talked about. The knees are open and the feet are nuetral. That could just be my impression though. For whatever reason I think of hung ga as having a ma bu that's a bit more closed - like the feet are ever so slightly angled in. I can't place it exactly it's just the way the whole stance looks. Again I could be wrong but the ma bu seems to have a 'northern' feel from where I sit.

Again great clips! Thanks.

 

[funnytiger]

Thanks for the clips, those are really good!! Well done. I guess I can see the choy ga influence because some of those corkscrewing strikes remind me a lot of choy lay fut which also has choy ga has an influence. Having said that I don't really know anything about choy ga itself. Your sihing's ma bu even seems a little northern to me, perhaps that's the siu lum influence you talked about. The knees are open and the feet are nuetral. That could just be my impression though. For whatever reason I think of hung ga as having a ma bu that's a bit more closed - like the feet are ever so slightly angled in. I can't place it exactly it's just the way the whole stance looks. Again I could be wrong but the ma bu seems to have a 'northern' feel from where I sit.

Again great clips! Thanks.

The Choy in Choy Li Fut (from my understanding) is not the same Choy in Choy Ga. Two different families. I have no first hand knowledge of this mind you, and it does seem odd that they would share so many similar characters such as the lok choy or wheel punches.

Anyway, onto things I DO know, lol.

Our sei ping ma or horse stance is the exact same as Hung Ga practitioners. A low, wide, strong horse stance is a characteristic of Hung Ga.

The straight or neutral feet in horse stance is also one of those "southern feet" generalizations. Of course you have things such as Wing Chun, and Southern Praying Mantis that completely buck that stereotype.

- ft

 

[tellner]

I think some styles are hard to classify in terms of northern vs. southern.

...

I guess it just frustrates me because the way we sometimes think about northern vs. southern isn't all that useful IMO. There are so many exceptions and as I've mentioned even styles that everyone sees as southern can still have a northern-type hand set in their curriculum. I guess the 'butterfly palms' set in hung ga would be an example of this.

I'd say it's a good thing. Neat dualities usually miss important things and flatten the otherwise fascinating landscape.

Besides, think about it for a moment. There have been a lot of fighters in China. Many of them have devised martial arts styles. It would have to be a nation of idiots if nobody ever said "I've traveled around a lot. There are guys over in that part of the country who do some things better than I do. Maybe I should learn how they do them so I will win more fights." It just doesn't make sense that a Northerner would never pick up Southern hand tricks or that every single Southern-trained guy avoided learning Northern feet.