Social Responsibility to the Deluded

[Flatlander]

Further to the discussion in this thread, I am curious as to the thoughts of the people here regarding our responsibility as citizens to address or otherwise intervene when we become aware of someone who is clearly and quite obviously not living in reality.

Should we, as members of society, be intervening, or should we mind our own business? If we are to intervene, how far should we go?

 

[Tgace]

I think theres a difference between intervening when the person is a danger to himself or others and "accepting" somebodies behavior. If a persons not a danger, let him do whatever he wants. However that doesn't mean we have to "accept" their delusions and/or provide them with any benefits or anything else.

 

[dubljay]

The point at which society should intervene with the "deluded" should only be when they pose a danger to themselves or to others. Without starting a whizzing contest I would like to point out that it is rather difficult to show that one Theology (or delsion) is more right or valid than another, generally speaking of course. This includes religion as well (IMO).


-Josh-

PS

I would like to point out that I see reality just fine... I just chose to keep my visits short and infrequent.

 

[Phil Elmore]

While I don't exactly wander my community looking for Goths or "alternatives" to bully, holding them down and rubbing their Clown White makeup in their artificially jet-black mops of hair, I don't think any rational person should simply let it slid when someone with an obvious mental problem makes that problem known. Anyone who labors under the bizarre fantasy that he really is a "vampire," regardless of how he qualifies it, is an idiot and should be told as much for his own good.

 

[Flatlander]

I guess my thought here is that, as a society, I assume that we function better when people who aren't operating in the same reality are receiving whatever treatment, medication, or counselling that they require. If, as citizens of a community, we don't take the time to point out the errors we see in their thought processes, we effectively pass the buck to someone else. This also assumes that there is someone else who can, and will.

Should we not take opportunities such as this for the improvement of our communities? I think that it's not only OK, but necessary. I also think that a big part of the problem is that people these days tend to desire an avoidance of conflict, and are largely apathetic when it comes to other people's problems. I think that in these circumstances, other people's problems can become our own, or our neighbour's, or our children's.

 

[Tgace]

There is really no "crime" in being "nuts"...in my job all I can do is take action if the person presents a danger.

 

[Flatlander]

There is really no "crime" in being "nuts"...in my job all I can do is take action if the person presents a danger.

That's different though, Tom. There is a definite difference between your professional responsibilities and your responsibilities as a member of your community. :asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

There are various levels of delusion. Schizophrenia can have very mild manifestations where the person gets along fine in society...but is thought of as odd. I suspect we all know a person (or will eventually) who believes in conspiracy theories and who is certain that people are following them home. This paranoia is not so uncommon.

About three years ago a woman in our school started behaving very oddly on the mat. I eventually had to ask her to leave the school. We learned later from her father that she was schizophrenic, and not taking her medicine. She later came into the school and told my wife that I had come to her place of employement and then physically forced her to come to the martial arts school to train. She truly believed I had done this. Linda told her she had to leave and not return. It was sad. She was truly a lovely and intelligent woman...when medicated.

This week (and drat, I missed it) Peter Jennings did a special on UFO's. Hundreds of people believe in them. People claim to have seen them. People claim to have been abducted. Are they delusional? Yes. Are they dangerously so? No, not usually. Do we have a social duty to call "doo doo" on these delusions? In this case I personally think so...but I can see where others might not share in that sense of obligation. UFO theorists are conspiracy theorists and pseudo-scientists. They love to buy into this junk because it gets them thinking that they're thinking. We often hear that knowledge is power...well a misperception that one has knowledge is a misperception of power. But it feels good. They feel like they're "on to something," even though it is little more than mind candy.

For the Goth vampire? Phil's blunt response wasn't inappropriate, I think. Some might think it rude, but in this case it likely did little harm. It might have in fact reinforced the kid's notion of himself as a persecuted and misunderstood minority. He probably likes that...it makes him feel even more the outsider.

Yet nothing Phil wrote will get to this kid. He won't seek help. He'll play this out until he finds another fantasy to adopt...or he'll keep playing at this one. It gives him that old illusion of power.

Some believe that "ki" power can knock a person out from a distance...a "no touch knockout." This too is delusional and gives a misplaced sense of power. Like UFO's, I think we have an obligation to debunk that. But even if we do, the adherents to it will go off and find something else ridiculous in which to believe. Some will anyway. A few of the younger ones might just well get a clue.

We can but hope.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Tgace]

But what then do you recommend doing? Cant call me. Confronting or debating with the mentally unstable isnt going to work either.

 

[Gray Phoenix]

So long as a person is not a danger to others, leave them be. You may ask if they need help, you may offer assistance, these are things that any good person would do, but to intervene, (its a very strong word), may be crossing the line. In our letigious society, I'd be extra careful intervening anyway. It could get you sued into the poor house.:erg:

 

[Melissa426]

I think we have to draw a line between people who just believe weird nutty things and those with true mental illnesses. It can be a hard call.

Like HHJH said, I doubt if anything Phil says to vampire boy will change his way of thinking. But, happily, nothing vampire boy says to Phil will cause Phil to lose his grip on reality.

True mental illness needs psychiatric intervention, cause these people can and may cause harm to themselves and others, depending on the nature of the delusions.
I think you need to step in when a person's actions regarding these delusional beliefs begin to affect the individual or community in harmful ways. (of course that begs the question... define "harmful." )

If the crazy vampire boys and girls are drinking each other's blood...risky and stupid, but so is having unprotected sex. If vampire boy is HIV positive and knowlingly lets others drink his blood, legal intervention is needed.

Mel Gibson's father espouses beliefs that negate the true impact and horrors the Holocaust inflicted on the Jewish community. Is he delusional? IMO, yes. Does he need psychological intervention. Doubt it.

I believe that 2000 years ago a man died on a cross and 3 days later was resurrected and lived for another 40 days until he ascended to Heaven. Lot of people might think I am delusional, but I consider myself quite sane and grounded in reality.

But when in doubt, err on the side of protecting yourself and community. If I thought that my crazy neighbor Larry, a government conspiracy nut, was going to blow up a federal building, I'd intervene quickly, I'd rather face the prospect of a lawsuit than live with the knowledge that my silence condemned those people in the building to death.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[shesulsa]

Perhaps if we treat psychological and psychiatric counseling as more socially acceptable as a nation and emotional/mental disturbances like colds, flu and we'd have a leg to stand on as to how fast we shove folks towards this kind of important help.

Psychotherapy. Insurance companies don't want to pay for it, nobody wants to get it but everybody knows at least a handful of people that they think needs it. 'Here, buddy, here's your Buy-One-Get-One-Free Coupon for Dr. Smith's Discount Therapy Warehouse. Works on therapy sessions, hypnosis treatments and personality tests!'

So if we're defining deluded as what someone else thinks happened (or didn't happen) versus what we "know" happened (still a matter of personal opinion) as opposed to mental illness. So which one needs therapy? How do we as a society in general maintain the line of distinction ... and should we really be the ones doing this??? Whether or not someone is deluded is a matter of personal opinion.

Does anyone else but me see the political implications in this? It's happening already, you know. But that's another thread ....

 

[Cryozombie]

Using Phils post as an example... Lemme point this out.

I'm not a "Goth" by deifinition, however, I am a "Rivethead"... as such, I often find myself in similar places, concerts, clubs, etc as the goths... Many of them are VERY eager to come and tell you about their "vampirism" "Bloodletting rituals" etc... (mind you that is NOT all the goths, or even a majority of them)... When they seek me out, I will happily tell them they are deluded, as was the case of the "Vampire" I fired for not coming to work when the sun was up. If they wish to leave it at that, so be it, if they continue to press the point, well, I am likely to do the same, until they, or I, grow bored. Am I RESPONSIBLE for doing so, no... but the person coming to me is clearly asking for acceptance or challenge... Should I give acceptance to some insane notion?

That said, I dont seek them out and tell them they are delusional. They tend to find me.

I have had people make comments about me, ranging from calling me Homosexual (not that nicley), to Satanic, to whatever, for my mode of dress... the Leather, Skulls, Spikes, Armor... it slides off my back... I dont think I am any of those things, so I dont need to confront those people... BUT If I went up to them first, spouting crazy nonsense, I could, and probably should, EXPECT them to comment to me.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Whether or not someone is deluded is a matter of personal opinion.

No, it isn't. If you think you're a vampire, a werewolf, or a zombie, you're delusional. There is no one on this planet who can say otherwise.

 

[treksinthesiddhis]

No, it isn't. If you think you're a vampire, a werewolf, or a zombie, you're delusional. There is no one on this planet who can say otherwise.

we all are living in our own made up realities my friend... even you and I.

I think if a kid wants to dress up in a vampire suit, paint his face white and hang from the ceiling like a bat while listening to generic death metal... let em, as long as he's not running around sinking his teeth into some poor girls neck, what's the harm?

As for being labeled delusional for thinking that you are something different, or thinking you are something that you and i would consider "not real"... i find that preposterous. To him, it is completely real, and is just as real as your perception of what you are. What if the whole world suddenly were under your "delusion" that they were vampires of some sort or another. We would very quickly find ourselves in the category of "delusional" by this new order for thinking (or knowing) we are not vampires. Furthermore, What are we NOW anyway brother? Human beings? And what is that exactly? Perhaps if we quantify, analise and categorize ourselves enough, our lives can loose all of their inherit beauty and divinity... I do not mean to be callous or make low brow remarks, but to rather express a point. We fool ourselves into thinking we know so much, that we have real, true understanding of what we are and why we are here, what defines us as beings. In reality, we have no idea what our true nature is, most of us at least. We are all just walking sacks of chemicals, convincing ourselves that what we believe on any given day must be real. In reality, we are romantically involved with an idea of what we would like to be based on belief systems we grew up with... and pursue that image of self to the utmost, persecuting those who do not choose the same method of thought or belief system, or those who may challenge our addiction to our beliefs.

Imagine things a different way...
In Iraq when we give people a "thumbs up"... to them, it's like flicking the bird. It is a obscene gesture in their country

The same was true when George bush (the first) went to Australia, and drove through Sydney giving a reverse peace sign through the window of his limo(which to them means up yours, roughly translated).

So, are our troops in Iraq and our former president *******s? No, but they can be perceived that way by people with different views very easily.

Many people consider themselves vampires if they feed on other peoples emotions, or attention (instead of blood). Some are "sexual vampires" feeding on sexual energy from multiple partners. In any case... if a group defines a set of principals and standards for a certain practice and gives that practice or belief system a name, in this case a metaphorical label "vampire" with supernatural/mythical historical context, it is no less real or true than a set of standards that you and your social class or group has created over time for themselves and defines as "right, moral and real". It is simply different, and should be respected as much in my opinion. If however, a groups moral values begins to cause harm to those in your group, phisical or otherwise, then by all means take exception to this group and do what you must to protect your interests (or re-evaluate your own interests as the situation dictates). In my humble opinion however, if a group of people wants to call themselves werewolves, vampires, or zombies, then they are not any more delusional than you or i, with our own made up cultural and moral values, they are simply very, very different . So for me, i let em be.

Finally I submit that There is beauty in the insane and very strange, if you allow yourself to be open minded enough to see it. Some of the greatest minds ever to grace this big blue ball were considered "insane" by their contemporaries.

For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal is psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity. - Jean Debuffet

Sorry if this was a rambling jumble of ideas, but i thought i would throw it out there!

Namaste:asian:
-Rob

 

[Tgace]

OK...then Im Emperor of the Universe.

 

[Phil Elmore]

we all are living in our own made up realities my friend... even you and I.

Speak for yourself. If you think you're a vampire, you're mentally unsound.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, I'm polite to radical Republicans, and people who take the, "Left Behind," books seriously. So hell, what's a blood-sucker or two, especially when I like garlic anyway?

And, this reminds me--time to send away for those, "Buffy," t-shirts. That should give them much to think about...

 

[Raewyn]

Sometimes you cant help those who wont help themselves. In a perfect world it would be great to say to someone" Look mate, you've got issues, go see someone who can help you" and then they go and get help. Alot of people will not admit to themselves when they need help.

 

[treksinthesiddhis]

Speak for yourself. If you think you're a vampire, you're mentally unsound.

I can agree to that bro... can you agree to speak only for yourself? And not for those who think differently?

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest, and i totally respect your right to your opinion. Luckily we live in a country where we can both share our own thoughts.

Namaste
-Rob