Snapping Twig, torque or counter-torque??

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True2Kenpo

True2Kenpo

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Fellow Kenpoists,

I think a lot of different perspectives are being brought up and it is very interesting to see how everyone views the techniques in different lights.

I would like to say though I do not agree that Snapping Twig utilizes Back-up Mass. Rather I would say it utilizes torque and opposing forces. I agree with Mr. Soares that Back-up Mass refers to your body moving in-line and with your strike or block as in Striking Serpent's Head and Blinding Sacrifice.

The reason the opponent is able to extend his arm is because we are stepping back giving us the range and distance to execute our strike. I feel Back-up mass does not effect this first movement.

In anycase, I would like to hear more thoughts on this... I hope possibly Mr. C or another senior could help out as well.

With respect,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh
 
K

Kirk

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Originally posted by Kenpodoc
I don't use the term counter torque so I'd be interested in a definition.


"Direct rotation torque turns your hips in the same direction as
your block or strike. Counter-rotation turns your hips the
opposite direction of your movement. Short Form One has
instances of both. It even shows the same block using both
types. " - Lee Wedlake Kenpo Karate 201


So again, since the main strike is the elbow strike with the right
hand, and the hips move to the right while going into a right
neutral bow ... why is it not regular ol' rotational torque?

Please understand I'm not arguing with any of you ... I'm
providing what I've been told, and I'm interested in the other
ideas presented.
 
K

Kenpomachine

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Originally posted by kenpo3631
No it's not. You weight is in line with your strike. Your weapon is in line with your body. You should be moving your mass as one entity.:asian:

I didn't say otherwise. I just said that you're taking advantage of the attacker's mass and momentum... In spanish we call it "Fuerza prestada" , borrowed force, and not back up mass. (we were talking about striking serpent's head, yes?)
I think of back up mass more of a vector of force and the vector of mass adding to it by going in the same way. Maybe I'm messing up my explaination again.
 

Doc

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Originally posted by jbkenpo
Exactly...

jb
Right JB. A simple reminder to some that "Back Up Mass" doesn't have to be "behind" the weapon. The mass simply supports the strike and that may be horizontal, vertical, or a combination of the 2 in any direction.

"Snapping Twig" does indeed utilize "Back Up Mass" as well as "Torque," along with a "Bracing Angle," "Opposing Forces," "Angle of Deflection," "Negative Body Posture," "Aggressive Weight," etc.
 

jaybacca72

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all the techniques or at least 98% of them include the principles doc was saying,you just have to know where to look for them just like everything else in kenpo. do the art long enough and the light bulbs start going off eventually with the help from the seniors of course to put you in the right direction.
later
jay:asian:
 

Doc

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Originally posted by jaybacca72
all the techniques or at least 98% of them include the principles doc was saying,you just have to know where to look for them just like everything else in kenpo. do the art long enough and the light bulbs start going off eventually with the help from the seniors of course to put you in the right direction.
later
jay:asian:
Of course you're correct. Pick a principle, and it would be hard to find a technique that didn't have it.
 
M

M F

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"Negative Body Posture," "Aggressive Weight,"

Doc,
Would you be able to explain these two principles, or point me in the direction of some writings that explain them? I am trying to puzzle them out, and having a hard time of it.
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I believe Lonekimono was refereing to the fact that if you and your strike are moving backwards, its not your mass the one backing up the strike, but the attacker's, I believe.
Well, at least that's how it works in striking serpent's head...

That is incorrect. The misunderstanding comes from the use of the word "back," and assuming it means behind. In human mechanics and physics that is not necessarily the case.

Question: Does a body and fender tool called a "dent puller" have back up mass? And if it does, is it in front of or behind the dent.

It pulls but still utilizes back up mass as a part of its basic mechanism in front of the action not behind it, much like "Striking Serphents Head.
 

Doc

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Originally posted by M F
Doc,
Would you be able to explain these two principles, or point me in the direction of some writings that explain them? I am trying to puzzle them out, and having a hard time of it.

When an individual assumes a negative thought process it translates to a shift in posture that is aggressive and usually means weight committed to one side of the body. This action is a negative body posture because it makes the body susceptible to attack because nerve cavities respond and open as well, depending on the posture. This can be easily shown in simple techniques when formulated, and demonstrated properly.
 

kenpo3631

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Originally posted by Doc
That is incorrect. The misunderstanding comes from the use of the word "back," and assuming it means behind. In human mechanics and physics that is not necessarily the case.

Question: Does a body and fender tool called a "dent puller" have back up mass? And if it does, is it in front of or behind the dent.

It pulls but still utilizes back up mass as a part of its basic mechanism in front of the action not behind it, much like "Striking Serphents Head.

Praise the Lord and pass the jelly! Thank you Mr. Chapel' , that is one of the best analogies I have read or heard in quite a while.:asian:
 
K

Kenpomachine

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Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I didn't say otherwise. I just said that you're taking advantage of the attacker's mass and momentum... In spanish we call it "Fuerza prestada" , borrowed force, and not back up mass. (we were talking about striking serpent's head, yes?)
I think of back up mass more of a vector of force and the vector of mass adding to it by going in the same way. Maybe I'm messing up my explaination again.

Apparently I was referring to Thrusting Prongs and not Striking Serpents Head. My fault and sorry for the misinterpretations. I have a problem with techniques names, as they haven't been taught to me. One of the instructors is just beginning to translate them.

By the way is that dent puller related to cars?
 

Doc

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Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Apparently I was referring to Thrusting Prongs and not Striking Serpents Head. My fault and sorry for the misinterpretations. I have a problem with techniques names, as they haven't been taught to me. One of the instructors is just beginning to translate them.

By the way is that dent puller related to cars?
A simple dent puller is a long shaft (about 24 inches) with one end threaded so it may be "screwed" into metal. There is a heavy sliding weight on the shaft and a "stop" on the opposite end to contain the weight. Once attached to the "dent" the weight is used to "slam" it's mass against the stop to "pull" the metal toward you. Commonly used in auto body repair and, unfortunately as an auto theft tool to pull ignitions out as well.

A classic use of "Back Up Mass" in front. Thanks for the kind words.
 
K

Kenpomachine

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Originally posted by Doc
A simple dent puller is a long shaft (about 24 inches) with one end threaded so it may be "screwed" into metal. There is a heavy sliding weight on the shaft and a "stop" on the opposite end to contain the weight. Once attached to the "dent" the weight is used to "slam" it's mass against the stop to "pull" the metal toward you. Commonly used in auto body repair and, unfortunately as an auto theft tool to pull ignitions out as well.

A classic use of "Back Up Mass" in front. Thanks for the kind words.

I hope I get to see one in use sometime. Not in mar car, though ;)

Thanks for the explanation.
 

sumdumguy

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Originally posted by Doc
That is incorrect. The misunderstanding comes from the use of the word "back," and assuming it means behind. In human mechanics and physics that is not necessarily the case.

Question: Does a body and fender tool called a "dent puller" have back up mass? And if it does, is it in front of or behind the dent.

It pulls but still utilizes back up mass as a part of its basic mechanism in front of the action not behind it, much like "Striking Serphents Head.

Although this is true, the dent puller is directly connected to the dent via a rod and has an apendage to recieve the force of the mass of the slide hammer and transfer the energy to the dent. the weight is not behind the dent but is transferred as if it were. With a technique like snapping twig, the only connection is the grab or fulcrum for the use of a "wheel and axle" i.e. leverage coupled with torque, rotational force, bracing angles and so on.
Have a nice Day!!! :asian: :asian:
 
L

lonekimono

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hey guys why don't all of us get together and have a camp ?
that way we can put all of this stuff to bed.
what do you think??
i know i'll be there will you??



yours in kenpo
what is the call of the wild??
 

sumdumguy

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Originally posted by lonekimono
hey guys why don't all of us get together and have a camp ?
that way we can put all of this stuff to bed.
what do you think??
i know i'll be there will you??



yours in kenpo
Not sure what you mean by that but I'll be there with bells on!!
Yea Ha let's do it!!!

:asian: :asian:
Have a nice Day
 

sumdumguy

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Originally posted by sumdumguy
Although this is true, the dent puller is directly connected to the dent via a rod and has an apendage to recieve the force of the mass of the slide hammer and transfer the energy to the dent. the weight is not behind the dent but is transferred as if it were. With a technique like snapping twig, the only connection is the grab or fulcrum for the use of a "wheel and axle" i.e. leverage coupled with torque, rotational force, bracing angles and so on.
Have a nice Day!!! :asian: :asian:
I was not trying to negate what Doc was saying here, I was simply putting my two cents in on the intricacies of the technique.
There is applied back-up-mass I guess I should have mentioned that.... My apologies.
Have a nice Day:asian: :asian:
 

Goldendragon7

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Originally posted by True2Kenpo
Torque or Counter-torque?
Respectfully, Joshua Ryer

What is counter torque?

I know there is torque..... but is there a reverse torque? NO, only torque in the opposite direction. So, what then is counter torque in this picture. (not a good term in my opinion) We must watch our terminology.

:asian:
 
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