I loved reading Mr Hayes' books in the 80's. I have rediscovered them and are reading them all over again. There are interesting. However, I have recently heard that a lot in them are not reflective of the Bujinkan and are mostly just the philosophies of Mr Hayes. I understand that (other than Sanchin) Mr Hayes made up the GoDai perspectives on fighting and that is not done in the Bujinkan. I have also heard that a lot of the spiritual aspects of the books are his interpetations and not the Bujinkans. Can anyone enlighten me on the matter?
SKH Books a representation of Bujinkan?
- Thread starter Senin
- Start date
Dale Seago
Black Belt
It's simple enough: Go to Japan, or spend some time training with someone who does, and the differences will quickly become apparent -- in ways and to a depth that dialogue about it could never do.
I loved those books too -- they're what got me, along with so many others, into this in the first place.
I loved those books too -- they're what got me, along with so many others, into this in the first place.
The only hayes book I have that I can read repeatedly... and maybe its because its mostly a work of fiction... is "Wisdom from The Ninja Village of the Cold Moon"
I am one of the many others...Dale Seago said:I loved those books too -- they're what got me, along with so many others, into this in the first place.
I still have 2 or 3 of his books on my bookshelf, but I have MORE of Soke Hatsumi's and I no longer read Hayes' books, but that is my personal preference. Probably for a similar reason as to why I don't play video games anymore. Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
I still read through "The Ninja And Their Secret Fighting Art" occasionally. It still cracks me up at times.
"What use could there be in leg attacks?"
:lool:
"What use could there be in leg attacks?"
:lool:
Bigshadow said:Probably for a similar reason as to why I don't play video games anymore.
Heretic.
HAHAHAHATechnopunk said:Heretic.
I have been called worse. My son isn't very happy with me when it comes to playing video games. I try to play games with him from time to time and it just doesn't hold my attention for very long. Also, being a software developer has taken all the fun out of computer/video games.
heretic888
Senior Master
Technopunk said:Heretic.
You rang?
Shogun
Master Black Belt
I just have to say a quick little thing. OBVIOUSLY, there is not a better training method than training WITH Hatsumi sensei. BUT, not everyone can make the trip. its just not feasable for some. furthermore, you HAVE to go to hatsumi to get your 5th dan. now, you dont have to go to Brazil to get your black belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu, so will this ever change?
just wondering.
thanks
Shogun
Master Black Belt
I have the one where it is a bunch of shidoshi interviewing Hatsumi. its pretty good.
actually, I have like ALL of SKH's books. kinda sad.
personally, I like books about "ninjitsu" that are from outside sources. some chick qrote a book about "all the martial arts", and the part on Ninja fighting was good. Ninja fighting - an oxymoron in itself.
actually, I have like ALL of SKH's books. kinda sad.
personally, I like books about "ninjitsu" that are from outside sources. some chick qrote a book about "all the martial arts", and the part on Ninja fighting was good. Ninja fighting - an oxymoron in itself.
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
I still can't figure out why people don't feel vaguely insulted by some of the things in there.Shogun said:
The SKH books were a good, fun, read! Were they representative
of the Bujinkan Arts? Somewhat, but clearly he missed details
or put in his own details! This is truly one of the problems I have
with all Budo Taijutsu books. I believe almost every book that
Hatsumi has ever done has been ghost written by someone or
translated by someone and clearly many of them have made
serious mistakes! Now don't get me wrong, almost all of them
are good books and clearly are worth reading! However, if one
is looking for facts in these books it has been shown time and
time again that you cannot take the written word on Budo Taijutsu
as the final word! This particularly peculiarity to Budo Taijutsu
has led many people around in circles looking for answers! Who
is responsible for this? I know of at least one occasion where an
author wrote a book and took it after the fact to Hatsumi for
preview! Mind you this book was already written, printed, etc!
Sensei had almost know impact on this book and yet it was sold
using his name and his arts name! Frustrating! That is how many
people feel trying to clarify things in Budo Taijutsu. We as students,
teachers, and most importantly authors and translators owe Soke
much better than this! All in all though, Stephen Hayes books were
a good read!
Brian R. VanCise
of the Bujinkan Arts? Somewhat, but clearly he missed details
or put in his own details! This is truly one of the problems I have
with all Budo Taijutsu books. I believe almost every book that
Hatsumi has ever done has been ghost written by someone or
translated by someone and clearly many of them have made
serious mistakes! Now don't get me wrong, almost all of them
are good books and clearly are worth reading! However, if one
is looking for facts in these books it has been shown time and
time again that you cannot take the written word on Budo Taijutsu
as the final word! This particularly peculiarity to Budo Taijutsu
has led many people around in circles looking for answers! Who
is responsible for this? I know of at least one occasion where an
author wrote a book and took it after the fact to Hatsumi for
preview! Mind you this book was already written, printed, etc!
Sensei had almost know impact on this book and yet it was sold
using his name and his arts name! Frustrating! That is how many
people feel trying to clarify things in Budo Taijutsu. We as students,
teachers, and most importantly authors and translators owe Soke
much better than this! All in all though, Stephen Hayes books were
a good read!
Brian R. VanCise
Kizaru,
I agree with you, I hope not as well!
Brian R. VanCise
I agree with you, I hope not as well!
Brian R. VanCise
Gina Jordan
White Belt
Lets put things into context here. the argument is whether Stephen K hayes books are representative of the Bujinkan?
I just picked up a copy of "Ninjutsu, the art of the invisible warrior" and this was first published in 1984. And of course some were published even earlier than this.
So this is a bit like saying "Is a 1984 copy of the New York Times representative of 2005?"
The Bujinkan has changed much over the past twenty five to thirty years since An Shu Hayes first visited Japan. It was originally Togakure Ryu, Then it became Ninpo Taijutsu, then Budo Taijutsu and now I hear its going back to Ninjutsu. Even Hatsumi Sensei has stated "Does not the weather change every day?"
So when Stephen K Hayes wrote those books, being of course before the majority of us had heard about ninjutsu, travelled to Japan to train, or in some of our cases been born. When An Shu first went to Japan I was two years of age. I'm thirty two now with a career and two children of my own.
It of course cannot be denied the impact that An Shu's books had on the world of Ninjutsu. Many of us started off picking up those books from a martial arts store, and intrigued wanted to find out more.
There are of course other factors that made those books what they are. Firstly editors and publishers have a big say about what goes into a book and what does not. I have a friend who has written four books and he says its the publishers that control very much what he writes.
Secondly in the early days Hatsumi Sensei had forbidden any one to name the techniques that were being taught. So in Stephen K Hayes books you may see a kata like Koku, but it will not be called Koku, as Hatsumi Sensei had forbidden things like this to be named.
Thirdly these books were not written for Bujinkan people, as there were none , apart from a few Japanese, and a few Israelis at the time. Possibly twenty or so people. Can you imaging trying to get funding to write a book for twenty people. These books were written for a general audience of people interested in martial arts. That is those people who wander into a martial arts book store with a view of buying something to read. As such the Stephen K Hayes books started a boom in ninjutsu and made Hatsumi Sensei famous, and of course very rich.
In the past they used to kill the messenger. Well Stephen K Hayes was the messenger, and his books were the message. It inspired a lot of people. In fact at one point Stephen K Hayes books were outselling Bruce Lee books.
Metaphoricaaly then many people try to assasinate Stephen K Hayes, coming up with all kinds of silly rumours. But please Guys. The Hayes books may not be you cup of tea today, but credit where its due. After all without these books many of us would still be practicing another martial art, and Hatsumi Sensei would still be teaching a few Japanese in the back room of his bone setting clinic.
Gina Jordan
www.toshindo.co.uk
I just picked up a copy of "Ninjutsu, the art of the invisible warrior" and this was first published in 1984. And of course some were published even earlier than this.
So this is a bit like saying "Is a 1984 copy of the New York Times representative of 2005?"
The Bujinkan has changed much over the past twenty five to thirty years since An Shu Hayes first visited Japan. It was originally Togakure Ryu, Then it became Ninpo Taijutsu, then Budo Taijutsu and now I hear its going back to Ninjutsu. Even Hatsumi Sensei has stated "Does not the weather change every day?"
So when Stephen K Hayes wrote those books, being of course before the majority of us had heard about ninjutsu, travelled to Japan to train, or in some of our cases been born. When An Shu first went to Japan I was two years of age. I'm thirty two now with a career and two children of my own.
It of course cannot be denied the impact that An Shu's books had on the world of Ninjutsu. Many of us started off picking up those books from a martial arts store, and intrigued wanted to find out more.
There are of course other factors that made those books what they are. Firstly editors and publishers have a big say about what goes into a book and what does not. I have a friend who has written four books and he says its the publishers that control very much what he writes.
Secondly in the early days Hatsumi Sensei had forbidden any one to name the techniques that were being taught. So in Stephen K Hayes books you may see a kata like Koku, but it will not be called Koku, as Hatsumi Sensei had forbidden things like this to be named.
Thirdly these books were not written for Bujinkan people, as there were none , apart from a few Japanese, and a few Israelis at the time. Possibly twenty or so people. Can you imaging trying to get funding to write a book for twenty people. These books were written for a general audience of people interested in martial arts. That is those people who wander into a martial arts book store with a view of buying something to read. As such the Stephen K Hayes books started a boom in ninjutsu and made Hatsumi Sensei famous, and of course very rich.
In the past they used to kill the messenger. Well Stephen K Hayes was the messenger, and his books were the message. It inspired a lot of people. In fact at one point Stephen K Hayes books were outselling Bruce Lee books.
Metaphoricaaly then many people try to assasinate Stephen K Hayes, coming up with all kinds of silly rumours. But please Guys. The Hayes books may not be you cup of tea today, but credit where its due. After all without these books many of us would still be practicing another martial art, and Hatsumi Sensei would still be teaching a few Japanese in the back room of his bone setting clinic.
Gina Jordan
www.toshindo.co.uk
Gina Jordan said:
I am going to stop you right there because everything you wrote is based on this false premise.
You present the idea that Hayes' stuff was different in 1984 than what you see now because of changes in the art. But the fact remains that at no point in the entire history of the Bujinkan did Hatsumi talk about things like the need for a 'fire stance' and the like.
And the stuff he writes now is no more a representative of the art IMO.
I can accept the fact that the books he came out with in the early years reflected the fact that he had such a meager experience. I have looked back on some things from my early years and slapped myself on the head for being so ignorant. Thank Cuthulu I did not put them down in print for others to read like Hayes. But his stuff differs from what you see in Japan because it is different and always has been.
So if you want stuff that reflects what is going on in Japan, you need to look at sources other than Hayes and closer to the subject matter.
Gina Jordan
White Belt
How do you know Don. You were not there. When Stephen K Hayes arrived in Japan, this was just two years after Takamatsu sensei had died and Hatsumi Sensei was trying to come to terms with being a grandmaster and lots of things were being tried out. Today the Bujinkan in Japan is a lot more organised, but in the early days, much it seems was about testing out this art.
Yes, interestingly Hatsumi mentions and talks at length about the Godai in Sanmyaku volume 1, number 3, yet people tend to think that An Shu Hayes made the name "Godai" up.
So maybe the Godai is not how it is taught in Japan today. That's fine. But can you imagine writing a book and featuring the Sanshin as a ninja method of combat. Well, somehow I don't think the books would have sold as well.
The idea of the Godai was so that eastern concepts of Ninjutsu could be taught to a western audience. This is the mark of a good teacher. To make understandable a concept to the student. I mean even today people don't fully understand the sanshin.
And over the years I have trained with more than one Bujinkan group that has used the Stephen K Hayes approach to the Godai to teach their students. And there are probably a few that still do.
So what has An Shu Hayes written recently?
But we are not talking about how An Shu Hayes books represent what is happening in Japan now, and thank god they don't. As I stated these books were written 20 plus years ago when YOU or I were not there.
Finally. The question I believe was how the SKH books were representative of the Bujinkan. Yet somehow you have turned this round to what is happening in Japan. But surely the Bujinkan is a world wide organisation, and I bet there's not two dojos that teach the same thing.
In fact I would argue that it would be very difficult to say what exactly the Bujinkan training method is. So in that case how can anything be representative of the Bujinkan?
Gina Jordan
www.toshindo.co.uk
Gina Jordan said:
Of course, neither were you.
So how can you try to say that the way things were done in Japan back then were different from what they are now? I have the advantage of talking with people who were there every week. :ultracool Their version of the way things ALWAYS WERE is very different from what Hayes presented and what you are trying to convince us.
As for the godai, the godai as presented and taught by Hayes is not the way it has ever been in Japan. Just because there is sui no kata does not mean that there is a 'Water style technique.'
Gina, I am going to stop you right there.
First, please do not tell Don what he knows or does not know because he was not there, then proceed to act as the authority on it when you were not. If you think about it, that makes you look silly and destroys your credibility.
Second. What is your Bujinkan experience, other than your aformentioned training with a few training groups, that you can speak with so much athority on it? Because many of us HAVE experience in in the Bujinkan AND with Mr. Hayes both in his early days teaching Toshindo, and back when he was still "under" Hatsumi.
I know that the "Hayes" crowd feels some bizzare need to legitimize him in the eyes of the Bujinkan people, which is plain silly. Your instructor Gary came on here with an identical party line... why??? We acknowlage Hayes ties to his training in Japan, we dont claim he is a fraud or somehow "lying" about his background... What we do claim is that his teachings are not "Better" than what the Bujinkan teaches... thats arrogance on the part of the Toshindo people on a grand scale. The humble student, in a handfull of years has outreached the lifetime of training by the master... Can it happen? Sure. did it in this case? Doubtful.
There are at least 2 members on this board that were student of Haeys in 2 seperate states who were witness to "AnShu" Hayes going to TKD schools and "Selling" them Toshindo blackbelts to help launch his "chain store" dojo's, and subsequently left. My instructor, also a former student of Hayes for a large number of years tells the same story. PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE. Thats your Genuis AnShu the Marketing Master for ya. I agree with your statement that His books opened the door for many of us... no one denies him that... although in my case his broad statements in those books almost PREVENTED me from seeking a Bujinkan teacher when I was rather disilluioned by the way training was going in his dojo because they were still holding onto the claim back then that Hayes was the ONLY legitimate western teacher, and his books (which the dojo REQUIRED you to buy and read as part of your rank) seemed to back that claim up. Sillyness.
My opinion? Hayes is a Talented Martial Artist, who saw the path paved with Greenbacks and followed it instead of continuing in the path of Budo.
All of this post was fluff. If so, then what's my point? Stop wasting your breath trying to change the opinion of people who have seen what he was and what he became... (ya know, people who were there when it happened, not people who "Bought" quest centers. Incedently there is one for sale here by me now...) stop trying to convince those of us who had MASTERS in our art with their ear to Hatsumi's lips tell us that Hatsumi never said "don't train with Hayes" Your opinion carries much less weight to us than theirs did, as I am sure ours does to you.
So...
First, please do not tell Don what he knows or does not know because he was not there, then proceed to act as the authority on it when you were not. If you think about it, that makes you look silly and destroys your credibility.
Second. What is your Bujinkan experience, other than your aformentioned training with a few training groups, that you can speak with so much athority on it? Because many of us HAVE experience in in the Bujinkan AND with Mr. Hayes both in his early days teaching Toshindo, and back when he was still "under" Hatsumi.
I know that the "Hayes" crowd feels some bizzare need to legitimize him in the eyes of the Bujinkan people, which is plain silly. Your instructor Gary came on here with an identical party line... why??? We acknowlage Hayes ties to his training in Japan, we dont claim he is a fraud or somehow "lying" about his background... What we do claim is that his teachings are not "Better" than what the Bujinkan teaches... thats arrogance on the part of the Toshindo people on a grand scale. The humble student, in a handfull of years has outreached the lifetime of training by the master... Can it happen? Sure. did it in this case? Doubtful.
There are at least 2 members on this board that were student of Haeys in 2 seperate states who were witness to "AnShu" Hayes going to TKD schools and "Selling" them Toshindo blackbelts to help launch his "chain store" dojo's, and subsequently left. My instructor, also a former student of Hayes for a large number of years tells the same story. PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE. Thats your Genuis AnShu the Marketing Master for ya. I agree with your statement that His books opened the door for many of us... no one denies him that... although in my case his broad statements in those books almost PREVENTED me from seeking a Bujinkan teacher when I was rather disilluioned by the way training was going in his dojo because they were still holding onto the claim back then that Hayes was the ONLY legitimate western teacher, and his books (which the dojo REQUIRED you to buy and read as part of your rank) seemed to back that claim up. Sillyness.
My opinion? Hayes is a Talented Martial Artist, who saw the path paved with Greenbacks and followed it instead of continuing in the path of Budo.
All of this post was fluff. If so, then what's my point? Stop wasting your breath trying to change the opinion of people who have seen what he was and what he became... (ya know, people who were there when it happened, not people who "Bought" quest centers. Incedently there is one for sale here by me now...) stop trying to convince those of us who had MASTERS in our art with their ear to Hatsumi's lips tell us that Hatsumi never said "don't train with Hayes" Your opinion carries much less weight to us than theirs did, as I am sure ours does to you.
So...
Gina Jordan
White Belt
Also a quote of yours from this site
Oh so it has changed. In the early days training was more intense because there were fewer people. The Bujinkan has changed because there are more people in it. In the days when An Shu Hayes was training there were only a few other students and as you say Don the training was much more intense.
In fact I would go so far as to say that in the early days the training was about trying to get things to work, i.e try out the techniques, whereas today it is more about learning the kata.
Gina Jordan
