Silat? ..how close it is to other styles? ...today!

[still learning]

Hello, Last night watching the "Human Weapons" ....they were in Maylaisa...learning the art of "Silat".

After watching the many moves and techniques...what I saw was the same things we do at our Universal Kempo-Karate Schools.

It surprise us...how similar most of the attacking techniques were...!

How many of you found this to be true for your art or style?

I did see demo's by a Silat school on the Big Island ,years ago before learning Kempo...( many years back)...not sure if they still have a school.

JUST SURPRISE..how close our training styles are!

Aloha, ( Many teachers...say there is nothing new in martial arts...just the way they teach them)

 

[tellner]

I was in the greater Kenpo family for a number of years (Kajukenbo). I've been doing Silat for quite a few more. I'd have to say the "It's remarkably like" observation isn't quite true. They do things in different ways, emphasize different things, and operate under different assumptions and principles.

There's a few things to consider...

The people who did the show were trying to hook the audience's interest. They may well have chosen things that would look exotic but at least a little familiar.

There are hundreds or thousands of forms of Silat. There are styles that are very similar to Karate, others which always retreat and counter, long-armed evasive ones and very aggressive styles which always fight from the ground. There are others with strong ties to Yoga as it has evolved on Bali and ones which specialize in conditioning the forearms and shins so that they can quite literally break limbs and crush skulls with a single blow. Some of them may have a lot of similarities to Kenpo. Many are radically different.

It also may be your stage of personal development as a martial artist. There are points where one looks at other systems and sees what is different and others where one sees what is the same. These come and go. For a long time I'd look at other styles and see the same things in Kajukenbo. Other times I'd see how the same physical motion was enormously different when expressed by someone from another system.

 

[MBuzzy]

The moves learned in "Human Weapon" are also all fighting focused. They leave out huge areas of arts. In addition, most of their shows will focus on an entire school or arts - for example, they did an episode on "Karate." They visited a number of different styles within Karate and learned bits and pieces of each. During the many of the episodes, they will bounce around and just learn pieces from many different school. I think that you get a bit of a skewed perspective when you look at things like that.

With that said, when you're talking about fighting, across systems, you're going to see a lot of things in common, there are just things that work well in fights! The same with Self Defense, whether you call it Hapkido, Aikido, Self Defense, etc....there are a finite number of ways that a joint can move. It is no wonder that people all over the world figured that out and capitalized on it.

I am constantly amazed by how similar my style is to other styles, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, even non-asian arts exhibit a lot of similarities....AND many many differences.

 

[Carol]

Moderator Note:

Thread moved to Indochinese Martial Arts.

- Carol Kaur
- MT Moderator

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

Many Silat instructors will also show their techniques in a more "karate" type way when they don't know/trust the person they are showing.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Some schools of Silat have something that they teach first, such as Pukulan, without the complexity of the Langkha or Juru. I've heard of some schools teaching other, more common styles of Silat (such as Serah/Serak) to new students, or those that they don't want to teach their true art.

 

[silatman]

I study silat based on the mangangkebau system and have found that the biggest difference from other arts is that the silat takes ALOT longer to become proficient in due to the subtle nature of the techniques.
To watch a good silat fighter you don't realize exactly how they are doing what they are doing, as they should be very fluid in all their movements. It is not until they do the move to you that you become aware of the fingers finding pressure points or the way that they take you off balance.
This is not to say that other arts aren't subtle as well, but I have yet to see anything that comes close to the ease of silat with the destruction that it can offer, (once you have done your time of course).

 

[silat]

Hello, Last night watching the "Human Weapons" ....they were in Maylaisa...learning the art of "Silat".

After watching the many moves and techniques...what I saw was the same things we do at our Universal Kempo-Karate Schools.

It surprise us...how similar most of the attacking techniques were...!

Still Learning,

I have a Kempo background as well and I do see the similarities to a lot of the basic or foundation techniques in the stand up styles of Silat.

Not to get the Kempo and/or Kenpo people riled up but if you look at the Silat world here in the USA you will find a lot of former Kempo/Kenpo practitioners now doing Silat.

Here are a few that I know of who train in Silat or converted to Silat:

1. Ed Parker Jr. - American Kenpo Karate - Trains in Kali & Silat with Ray Dionaldo.

2. Bob Orlando - Je-Du Too School Of Martial Arts - converted from Chinese Kempo and studies with Willem DeThouars.

3. Joseph Simonet - Ki Concepts - trains both Tracy's Kenpo Karate & Pentjak Silat Serak with Victor DeThouars.

and there are many, many others but these are the most recognized names I can think of.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[tellner]

Just a correction, Eddie. Simonet doesn't train Serak with anyone and never did. He had a black belt in Tongkat, but never studied the parent art. I've seen his Serak tapes, and they were lousy.

I've found more Kempo/Silat similarities where the teacher came from a Kempo background. When he or she was mostly a Silat player it was much harder to see.

 

[silat]

I've found more Kempo/Silat similarities where the teacher came from a Kempo background. When he or she was mostly a Silat player it was much harder to see.

Tellner,

Some of the similarities that I have noticed are not necessarily techniques as much as concepts or philosophy like the following:

1. Checking
2. Alive Hand
3. Leg traps & sectors
4. Triple striking
5. Off balancing by altering the spine alignment
6. Evading using the triangle
7. and etc...

Here is what my Kempo instructor said about Kempo/Kenpo as opposed to Silat: "I think that they (Kempo) are in the right church but the wrong pew".

In other words they are on the right tract but Silat is already there and why I think so many Kempo/Kenpo practitioners switch to Silat once they take a lesson.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[Carol]

Tellner,

Some of the similarities that I have noticed are not necessarily techniques as much as concepts or philosophy like the following:

1. Checking
2. Alive Hand
3. Leg traps & sectors
4. Triple striking
5. Off balancing by altering the spine alignment
6. Evading using the triangle
7. and etc...

Here is what my Kempo instructor said about Kempo/Kenpo as opposed to Silat: "I think that they (Kempo) are in the right church but the wrong pew".

In other words they are on the right tract but Silat is already there and why I think so many Kempo/Kenpo practitioners switch to Silat once they take a lesson.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

There are many structural and mindset differences between Kenpo and Silat that make the training very different and there are some Kenpoists that try Silat and simply get lost. Kenpo is a technique-based art, Silat works off of principles and applications, and the differences in the way the fighters think can be enormous.

I've worked out with Kenpo people that have wanted to see some of my training, and when I ask them to attack me, they always ask "how?" When my response is "anything" I always get strange looks.

I try to explain that I work off the direction of the energy and not "technique Z against a high left roundhouse punch" but I still get very strange looks and questions like "do you have a defense against a two-handed grab? How about a flying side kick?" Well gimme a flying sidekick and I'll show you.

The belt structure of many Kenpo systems is very structured with many techniques that stack and build upon one another. It takes more than a simple leap to really make the transition in to Silat. Personally I think what attracts so Kenpoists is the same as what attracts many other MAists - the sheer brutality and devastation of the Silat styles.

 

[silat]

Carol,

I guess it does depend on what style of Kempo/Kenpo it is, who was their instructor and what rank they are?

I find the most responsive and similar are the American Kenpo stylist because it is already a mixed martial art employing Philippino & Polynesian fighting arts that are similar to Silat.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[Ceicei]

Carol,

I guess it does depend on what style of Kempo/Kenpo it is, who was their instructor and what rank they are?

I find the most responsive and similar are the American Kenpo stylist because it is already a mixed martial art employing Philippino & Polynesian fighting arts that are similar to Silat.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

Well, GM Ed Parker grew up in Hawaii, so he was exposed to several different styles that were practiced there. He also worked out with different stylists while developing American Kenpo (both there and on the mainland of America) so it does make sense that motions similar to Silat may show up in Kenpo.

- Ceicei

 

[megat]

well i think it too generalizing it because there are too many kind of silat. some more different than other. i did not see the show?? what kind of silat was shown. i mean what school was it??

 

[doc D]

Hello
I have had very similar experience to what Carol Kaur describes. Many years ago, I studied different Kenpo/ Kempo styles. Later, when I first met Kali and Silat players I had to rethink a few things. I still believe the kenpo / kempo styles are fine arts, of course. Silat teaches jurus-jurus more as "conceptual tool boxes" from the onset....at least this is my opinion.The student understands earlier that many applications or buah can flow from just one or two of these "capsules" of movement . The emphasis on very dynamic foot work adds a level of development that , I think , is realized earlier in the silat practitioners as well. Kenpo initially starts the student with Technique "whatever"...lets call it "A" is for the man who steps with right foot throwing 2 handed push,... technique "B" is for the man stepping with L foot, throwing , right hook , left hook....technique "c" is for R hand grabbing L wrist followed by L straight punch...etc.

In the earlier Kenpo levels , I think there is tendency to contemplate which techniques might need to be used for an engagement....sort of like the options scrolling down the internal HUD of the Terminator in the movies. I think its probably much later at black belt levels that these many techniques are "dissolved" , so to speak... where all the tools from the many set techniques are spontaneously applied to the demands of the moment without consideration for specific attack combinations. No disrespect to Kenpo at all....I still enjoy playing around with some of the material I learned from it. I just think they arrive at the same or ,at least similar , endpoint at a different time.( Kenpo is NOT the only system that has this approach....so I don't mean to specifically focus on them....but they are a fine example of this particular training model)

Now ,when working with new students who have done Kenpo style arts for a while , I also get the bewildered response when I say "it doesn't matter.." when they ask me about what foot steps where or what they are to use for an attack....and I have had this from a few black belts too. Perhaps that shows an inadequacy in my own teaching style .....but, I do find it amusing just because I understand how they are thinking since I had a similar training foundation. When I first came to silat I wanted to think in terms of "technique"....fortunately my teachers broke me of that quickly , hee, hee...

I think ,generally, if previous training gets in the way, that is a limitation produced by your mindset, predjudices and inability to let go of your old experiences, empty your cup and move forward. Often the base developed from other experiences prepares you for what is ahead .

That doesn't mean I wouldn't recommend kenpo/ kempo to some one who had that as an option compared to number of other arts. Its a good system , overall, I think.

With Respect ,

Doc

 

[silat]

well i think it too generalizing it because there are too many kind of silat. some more different than other. i did not see the show?? what kind of silat was shown. i mean what school was it??

Megat,

You are correct to a point but remember I'm not talking about technique as much as the other points I mentioned earlier.

Silat stand up styles do use the concepts & philosophy that I described previously, maybe not every one or exactly but those traits are universal to most Silat styles.

Now without getting into the styles that call themselves Silat but are Kuntao or a combination of Silat and something else I will say that actual stand up styles of Silat use universal principals that are distinctively Malay Archipelago.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

 

[Doc_Jude]

So, in your opinion, the Silat/Kenpo correlation came about after Ed Parker? I'm just wondering because I read a James Mitose book and didn't see much of anything that I would have considered too close to Silat, or at least the Silat that I do.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Not to drift too far, but when you talk Silat/Kempo, I could imagine there being more in common between FMA Silat and Kenpo that between Kenpo and Indo/Malay Silat. Thoughts?

 

[silat]

So, in your opinion, the Silat/Kenpo correlation came about after Ed Parker? I'm just wondering because I read a James Mitose book and didn't see much of anything that I would have considered too close to Silat, or at least the Silat that I do.

Doc,

I would say that Ed Parker Kenpo has the most similarities to Silat than other Kempo because of the addition of Arnis, Lua and Chuan Fa.

But I do think that most Kenpo/Kempo has some similarities and remember don't look at the techniques as much as the approach, philosophy & concepts.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester