Silat Questions

[JoeJKD82]

Hello,

I am a JKD practitioner in RI (2 years and counting) and I've recently become very interested in Silat. Hoewever, I don't know anyone in my area who teaches silat, so all of what I know comes from what I read. I recently had the pleasure of watching Guru Plinck's Silat Serak video, and the concepts blew me away. However, one of the things I'm having trouble with is Sapu Luar (inside Sweep). I can't seem to get the leverage right. I know I'm supposed to lever something to his "front 45" or his "front triangle" (however you want to call it) but I find it difficult. What exactly am I supposed to lever? What other simple methods can be used to unbalance someone to set up sapu luar (push on a particular shoulder, etc.)
Finally, I'm interested in more silat videos, but I don't want a technique video. I have a decent ammount of experience in the martial arts, so I tend to benefit more if I learn concepts. What videos beyond Guru Plinck's would you suggest? If Guro Casto is still around here, I'd love to have your input, I've checked out your school's website and I love it. I know your seminars are on video, do you cover off balancing angles etc. in any of your videos?
Any input is appreciated. Thanks!

-Joe

 

[Phadrus00]

Joe,

Howdy Neighbor! I live in Boston but I train on the South Shore in Weymouth which is not that terribly far from the lovely state of RI!

Finding Silat players is hard to do but I do recall several in the area when I attended a Jim Ingram seminar a few years back and more recently I attended a Victor DeThoraras seminar in Walpole I believe and a number of players came from all over. If you ever find yourself around Boston on a Tuesday or Thursday night please drop into EEMA (www.eemaworld.com) and say hello!

With regards to your question about Sapu Luar and what to leverage.. well it depends on the entry. If you are entering inside and you have passed his cross and have placed your lead foot on the outside of your opponents lead foot then you are going to want to twist his upper body towards that leg until he wants to lift his lead foot and move it out to stabilize his stance. As he tries to move you sweep with your Sapu towards his middle as you press a little more on his shoulder. This should flip him very nicely.

Alternatively if you have entered to the outside by passing the jab then you have probably placed your lead foot behind his lead foot from the inside. From here you want to press straight back and wait for him to try and lift his lead foot. As he does sweep towards but in front of you and he will fall straight back.

Hope that helps!

Rob

 

[GuruJim1]

Joe,

The concept of triangle throwing is that we all stand on a triangle at only two points. Once you take someone to the third point they fall. Your lever will be whatever your entry is.

Outside entry:

The attacker has his right leg forward and punching with his right hand. Your left hand inside blocks as your right hand parries at their right bicep turning their body to their left as you do your inside sweep.

Inside Entry:

The attacker has his right leg forwards and punching with his right hand. Your right hand inside block as your left hand outside parries their arm. Your right hand will back hand their neck (Breakel Nerve) controlling their head pushing their body to their left as you inside sweep their right leg.

I hope this helps you to understand the concept of levers and sapu.

 

[JoeJKD82]

Thanks to both of you! That does help. Rob, you mention sapu while pushing the opponent back, which i never really tried. The technique i saw was sapu while pulling your opponent forward. They end up (or they should) falling on their face at the end of the technique. The problem i have is levering my opponent enough to cause loss of balance. I'm short, so it's not easy for me to take the back or even the neck at times.

My foot placement could be off too. Where do you tend to find your feet when you perform this technique? Perhaps I'm not entering enough? Where is your rear foot? Are there are ideal areas to push/pull?

Ironically, I have no problems with beset. Foot dragging is fairly easy for me to perform (could be all those osoto gari's they had us perform back in kenpo!), though sometimes i end up doing it more like a reaping throw.

Thanks! And Rob, I will definitely keep you guys in mind! I'd love to get some silat lessons in! Do you have any seminars/workshops coming up? I'd love to make my way down there (it helps that I think Boston is a great city).

 

[JoeJKD82]

Oh, and great demo video, Guru Jim!

 

[Phadrus00]

Thanks to both of you! That does help. Rob, you mention sapu while pushing the opponent back, which i never really tried. The technique i saw was sapu while pulling your opponent forward. They end up (or they should) falling on their face at the end of the technique. The problem i have is levering my opponent enough to cause loss of balance. I'm short, so it's not easy for me to take the back or even the neck at times.

Joe,

I am 6'4" and most of my Silat instructors were small Indonesian men so Height REALLY should not play a magor factor! *grin* If you are not able to get access to the head or neck you need to encourage them to come down by either off-balancing them more or "ticking" areas on the entry such as their groin or the inside of a leg. You may also find that Harimau techniques like Candles or a Knee Pull are more effective for you against a large opponent as they are low ground techniques.

Sapu can be done in MANY ways. Guru Jim discussed the triangle concept which is very true and very powerful (Thank you Sir!). If you imagine that our balanace is founded on a triangle like a three legged stool and you use your footsweeps to control one of your opponents legs while manipulating their balance towards the third empty position you will have an idea how the principles of the sweeps work. So to use sapu against an opponent that I want to fall backwards I enter inside, place my foot behind his at almost 90 deg. to his and manipulate his balance to fall to the empty position directly behind him (remember the three legged stool). This will elicit the response of him lifting his lead leg (his rear leg has all his weight so he cannot lift it) and trying to place it behind him. That's when you Sapu and effectively throw him backwards.

My foot placement could be off too. Where do you tend to find your feet when you perform this technique? Perhaps I'm not entering enough? Where is your rear foot? Are there are ideal areas to push/pull?

It depends on the technique. If I am sweeping off of a cross it is going to be beside the foot but deep enough that I can sweep at the ankle. The technique I described above requires being in behind the foot. My very favorite technique requires standing on the opponents foot.

Ironically, I have no problems with beset. Foot dragging is fairly easy for me to perform (could be all those osoto gari's they had us perform back in kenpo!), though sometimes i end up doing it more like a reaping throw.

I have always found Bisets easier because there was mush more linear force being used. Sapus are harder because they are more subtle and require energy being applied in just the right way.. That's why they are so darn cool! *grin*

Thanks! And Rob, I will definitely keep you guys in mind! I'd love to get some silat lessons in! Do you have any seminars/workshops coming up? I'd love to make my way down there (it helps that I think Boston is a great city).

Joe it would be a pleasure to have you! I don't teach a pure Silat class at this point but I do incorporate it into the Escrima class that I teach on Thursday nights. Feel free to drop in and jump into a class. I also am at the club on Tuesday nights and would be happy to grab a mat and cover some techniques with you.

Have a great day!

Rob

 

[rutherford]

My foot placement could be off too. Where do you tend to find your feet when you perform this technique? Perhaps I'm not entering enough?

I find these easiest to perform hip to hip, but they work at varying depths.

 

[GuruJim1]

Originally Posted by JoeJKD82
The technique i saw was sapu while pulling your opponent forward. They end up (or they should) falling on their face at the end of the technique.


The concept of pulling is to put the attacker's weight onto his front leg making the sweep a lot better because that is his main support leg. If the attacker's weight is to the rear to much all the attacker will do is lift his foot to counter your sweep. If you enter into the attackers strike a slight pull forward forcing them to put their weight on their front foot. Let say your sweeping their lead right leg with your right leg. Only touch the ground with your heel, keeping your foot pointed upwards as if your leg is a check sign. His will allow you to hook the attacker's leg and make the sweep better (Just a lesser known element).


If you push the attacker then push him to rotate his body, which will assist with the throw. Always remember to take them to the third angle their not at. Rotate their body to their second angle while at the same time sweeping their foot to the famous third angle.


Originally Posted by JoeJKD82
Oh, and great demo video, Guru Jim!


Thank you very much I'm glad you liked it. I'll be doing another demo video real soon.


Phadrus00 has some very good point of the sapu and is 100% dead on, good work bro.


Joe, just remember that silat is an up close and personal art. Enter in deep, and stick close to your attacker. There is to be very little distance between you and the attacker. Most arts see close range as 3-5 feet away, not silat. 0-1 foot away is close range to us. If you remember what Phadrus00 and I'm telling you then you should get the concept of sapu very soon. Good Luck Joe.

 

[Phadrus00]

Phadrus00 has some very good point of the sapu and is 100% dead on, good work bro.

Guru Jim,

:asian: Thank you sir! You are too kind.

Rob

 

[JoeJKD82]

Thank you gentelmen very much for your input! I happen to be about 5'5" and 128lbs., so up close is where I like to me to minimize my opponent's reach. I have very fast hands and decent footwork from boxing training, so entering is usually a little easier for me than most. That's why I'm so interested in these techniques. I don't want to box anyone in a real fight, too dangerous. I'd rather dump them on the ground and get the hell out of there!

To pursue this topic further, using the example of a right stance vs. right stance my foot on the inside position setup, I find my problem tends to that either i pull too much on to the lead leg, making it too hard to sweep, or i pull too much to the side, not sufficiently weighting the leg being swept. Usually my problem is the former, however. What points of the body can be grabbed and pulled towards the weak forward angle (front triangle)? I find arms don't displace enough, and the head is tough to reach and pull while sweeping. Which way does one want to rotate the opponent's torso when pulling for inside sapu? What can you grab to acheive this? In fact, what was the "Ideal form" you learned this technique in? When throws are learned usually you're shown the "ideal" sequence so that the conepts can be more easily grasped and experimentation can occur. I really want to nail this sweep, as I spar often, and find myself in a good position to perform this sweep, but since I can't do it, I usually just end up working the body and reverting to my boxing.

Has anyone had a chance to check out Ron Balicki's Kali Silat entries and takedowns DVD? I was thinking about getting it, but I haven't seen any reviews for it. Are there better DVD's that illustrate this concept?

Thanks alot for all the info, if nothing else this is a very enjoyable conversation, I only wish I had insight to share with you as well!

 

[Phadrus00]

Thank you gentelmen very much for your input! I happen to be about 5'5" and 128lbs., so up close is where I like to me to minimize my opponent's reach. I have very fast hands and decent footwork from boxing training, so entering is usually a little easier for me than most. That's why I'm so interested in these techniques. I don't want to box anyone in a real fight, too dangerous. I'd rather dump them on the ground and get the hell out of there!

This is a GOOD Strategy, irregardless of your height/weight! *grin*

To pursue this topic further, using the example of a right stance vs. right stance my foot on the inside position setup, I find my problem tends to that either i pull too much on to the lead leg, making it too hard to sweep, or i pull too much to the side, not sufficiently weighting the leg being swept. Usually my problem is the former, however. What points of the body can be grabbed and pulled towards the weak forward angle (front triangle)? I find arms don't displace enough, and the head is tough to reach and pull while sweeping. Which way does one want to rotate the opponent's torso when pulling for inside sapu? What can you grab to acheive this? In fact, what was the "Ideal form" you learned this technique in? When throws are learned usually you're shown the "ideal" sequence so that the conepts can be more easily grasped and experimentation can occur. I really want to nail this sweep, as I spar often, and find myself in a good position to perform this sweep, but since I can't do it, I usually just end up working the body and reverting to my boxing.

Hmmm... It's dificult to fine tune any execution without actually seeing you perform the technique and working with you on it. Having said that let me explain some more theory of sweeps and perhaps you can problem solve on your own, additionally I do encourage you to drop by some night and we can work on this a little for you.

Ok.. Think about two equilateral triangles on your opponents body. One is at his hips which represent one side and there is a point in front of him that defines the other two sides. A similar triangle exist at his shoulders. When you are balanced these two triangles are perfectly aligned and the lines between the shoulder points and their corresponding hip points AND the imaginary points in front of them are all the same length. You are the MOST stable in this position. Whenever you misalign the upper and lower triangles or stretch out one or more sides, you disrupt their balance. The more out of alignment they are, the mosre degraded their balance is.

The key to throwing in Silat is not hitting the leg hard with your sweep, it's misaligning these two triangles to the point that the opponent HAS TO MOVE in order to attempt to re-align them. You sweep that leg just as they are trying to realign and BAM they go down.

The ways to misalign their triangles are pretty vast but things like turning their head, shoulders, or hips work very well. Joint manipulation is very popular in some styles and pushing thier head back, pulling it forward, or striking a soft target with a knee or elbow work very well. I generally try to avoid set up that involve pitting strength against strenth (pulling the arm straight out for example) because it gives my opponent an opportunity to solidify his position and align his triangles, making my job more difficult. The best set-up involve letting them provide the energy and merely trapping them in an unbalanced position (like slipping the cross while trapping the lead leg and then twisting their upper body in the direction of the cross energy).

Don't get me wrong, foot position and details about hip placement are important, but understanding these principles gives you a much better understanding of WHY these techniques work as well as they do and HOW you can setup different sweeps.

Drop by when you can!

Rob

 

[JoeJKD82]

Thank you very much! That was definitely the kind of information I was looking for. Now the trick will be to incorporate this concept into some of the dumog manipulations i know (bicep manipulations, head manipulations etc.) Also it seems transitioning from foot pinning to sweeping would be a useful skill. Thank you! I have much to experiment with now.

Another question, what exactly is Kinjit (cutting the body)?