Sifu Hsu: internal vs. external (revisited)

[mantis]

Here i am going to be quoting sifu Adam Hsu form his book 'The Sowrd Polisher's Record'. (www.adamhsu.com) Sifu hsu learned about 8 different styles until he got to this conclusion. Please state what you think about his argument, or what you think about the subject matter from your own experience:

"all martial artists must start with though fundamental training and possess a fair amount of athletic ability. This is the external part of training. High-level techniques are possible only when built upon the foundation of strong basics. Higher levels use less rough power, more mature techniques, and must engage the mind and spirit. This we call internal Kung Fu.

The truth is that any style can be an internal style but not every practitioner can reach levels high enough to earn the distinction of internal stylist even if they practict taiji, xingyi, or bagua"

your answers will help me and other people understand more the internal/external training.

 

[yipman_sifu]

Here i am going to be quoting sifu Adam Hsu form his book 'The Sowrd Polisher's Record'. (www.adamhsu.com) Sifu hsu learned about 8 different styles until he got to this conclusion. Please state what you think about his argument, or what you think about the subject matter from your own experience:

"all martial artists must start with though fundamental training and possess a fair amount of athletic ability. This is the external part of training. High-level techniques are possible only when built upon the foundation of strong basics. Higher levels use less rough power, more mature techniques, and must engage the mind and spirit. This we call internal Kung Fu.

The truth is that any style can be an internal style but not every practitioner can reach levels high enough to earn the distinction of internal stylist even if they practict taiji, xingyi, or bagua"

your answers will help me and other people understand more the internal/external training.

Never heard of Sifu Adam Hsu, but what he says is 100% true. I liked the saying: The truth is that any style can be an internal style but not every practitioner can reach levels high enough to earn the distinction of internal stylist even if they practict taiji, xingyi, or bagua". Reaching spiritual levels in combat needs a high level of devotion and sincerety. That's why I personally beleive that UFC, K1, Pride fighters are all combatants filled with techniques but not worth a look. They just fight with lacking internal aspects. That's why they are very limited due to the little discipline they got. Those fighters can be top in the ring, but if they fight any internal trained guy, they are going to lose. Some people never beleive what I am saying, because they never saw how Taichi trainers develops power and how they are balanced. The internal terms of combat also gives you a purpose to fight and know when to fight, it mobilizes the human sences to be very patient, kind, and always makes fighting the as the worst solution possible. If someone really owns such values and trains hard, I baleive he would have the chance to overcome any kind of arrogant opponents, no matter how strong they were formed and structured.

As it is known. "Strong wind breaks stiff trunks easily, but can never break a bamboo branch that has strong roots and a flexible branch".

 

[green meanie]

I liked the saying: The truth is that any style can be an internal style but not every practitioner can reach levels high enough to earn the distinction of internal stylist even if they practict taiji, xingyi, or bagua".

I also liked this statement and agree with it as well.

Reaching spiritual levels in combat needs a high level of devotion and sincerety. That's why I personally beleive that UFC, K1, Pride fighters are all combatants filled with techniques but not worth a look.

This I don't agree with. I think all arts have something to offer.

They just fight with lacking internal aspects. That's why they are very limited due to the little discipline they got.

I don't believe this is any indication that they lack 'discipline'. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion except to guess that you have no idea what it is involved when training to fight professionally.

Those fighters can be top in the ring, but if they fight any internal trained guy, they are going to lose.

As it is known. "Strong wind breaks stiff trunks easily, but can never break a bamboo branch that has strong roots and a flexible branch".

Yes, but that quote can also apply to the external and doesn't necessarily support your statements about the internal aspect of the arts. In fact this is a saying that I've heard often in Ju Jitsu to describe the yielding, go with the flow, technical aspects of the art; which has held up rather well in the ring don't you think?

 

[yipman_sifu]

Yes, but that quote can also apply to the external and doesn't necessarily support your statements about the internal aspect of the arts. In fact this is a saying that I've heard often in Ju Jitsu to describe the yielding, go with the flow, technical aspects of the art; which has held up rather well in the ring don't you think?

OK Jujutsu is different in its aspects, its a martial art we all know of its effectivness, but still is no match for Taichi. Remember that I said that its not the arts that doesn't seek spiritual levels, but it's trainers who if were really disciplined like you said. They wouldn't see them fighting in rings and hurting other people, this exactly opposite to the martial way theory of self-defence where we fight only if neccessary.

 

[green meanie]

OK Jujutsu is different in its aspects, its a martial art we all know of its effectivness, but still is no match for Taichi.

How can you make a statement like that? It's ridiculous. There is no superior art, only superior artists. Believe me, I'm not belittling Taichi, I just think it's foolish on your part to make that statement simply because you happen to find fighting in the ring distatesful.

Remember that I said that its not the arts that doesn't seek spiritual levels, but it's trainers who if were really disciplined like you said. They wouldn't see them fighting in rings and hurting other people, this exactly opposite to the martial way theory of self-defence where we fight only if neccessary.

I think you're disregarding how this thread began. It started with the statement, "all martial artists must start with though fundamental training and possess a fair amount of athletic ability. This is the external part of training. High-level techniques are possible only when built upon the foundation of strong basics. Higher levels use less rough power, more mature techniques, and must engage the mind and spirit. This we call internal Kung Fu. The truth is that any style can be an internal style but not every practitioner can reach levels high enough to earn the distinction of internal stylist even if they practict taiji, xingyi, or bagua"

Again, I think your dislike for MMA-style fighting is blinding you to the possibility that some of these fighters (who possess the fundamental training and the athleticism described) are just as capable as anyone to move into the internal aspects of the arts later in life after their career in the ring is over.

Regards, green meanie
:asian:

 

[mantis]

i cannot speak for yipman_sifu
but from what the way i read his comments is JJ is no match for taichi in terms of emphasis on internal training at higher levels, and since internal training dramatically improves your performance he came to that conclusion.

I am like yipman_sifu, i never thought MMA practitioners learn to develop any internal skill or at least internal training is not too emphasized, but i could be wrong. i mean i have really little information, so please feel free to talk about MMA's internal training.

 

[yipman_sifu]

You may saw some ring fighters with good discipline. I personally never saw a single ring fighter with good intesion or spirit. These fighters are very skilled that's true, but can never be like someone who trained for the sake of the martial way and discipline, and considers fighting as a bad solution. Beleive me that affects the results of the combatic brawls we face. MMA arts fighters are all tough looking, hitting each other for no purpose. Where are the high discipline you are talking about?!. I mean this discipline is the begining of gaining spiritual insight my friend. Did Tank Abbot had any discipline when he fought in the ring. Tell me how such guy might gain spirtual power and internal strength. Do you expect a guy who demeans other martial artists like Bruce Lee or GeneLeBell would be an internal possesed fighter. If the answer was yes. I would like to say where did the martial values went, did they flew over and left humans fight only for fighting. If that it true, then animals fight better than us. These values are the only differences between us and them.

 

[green meanie]

i cannot speak for yipman_sifu
but from what the way i read his comments is JJ is no match for taichi in terms of emphasis on internal training at higher levels, and since internal training dramatically improves your performance he came to that conclusion.

Based on this statement I have to disagree:

Those fighters can be top in the ring, but if they fight any internal trained guy, they are going to lose.

I am like yipman_sifu, i never thought MMA practitioners learn to develop any internal skill or at least internal training is not too emphasized, but i could be wrong. i mean i have really little information, so please feel free to talk about MMA's internal training.

I seriously doubt there's ANY time spent working on the internal aspects in MMA training. They're focused on the external and there's nothing wrong with that. But that doesn't mean that these fighters can't or won't choose to take their training in another direction at some point later on in their life. And while I admit it would be foolish to suggest that they will I think the important thing here is they could.

 

[green meanie]

You may saw some ring fighters with good discipline. I personally never saw a single ring fighter with good intesion or spirit. These fighters are very skilled that's true, but can never be like someone who trained for the sake of the martial way and discipline, and considers fighting as a bad solution. Beleive me that affects the results of the combatic brawls we face. MMA arts fighters are all tough looking, hitting each other for no purpose. Where are the high discipline you are talking about?!. I mean this discipline is the begining of gaining spiritual insight my friend. Did Tank Abbot had any discipline when he fought in the ring. Tell me how such guy might gain spirtual power and internal strength. Do you expect a guy who demeans other martial artists like Bruce Lee or GeneLeBell would be an internal possesed fighter. If the answer was yes. I would like to say where did the martial values went, did they flew over and left humans fight only for fighting. If that it true, then animals fight better than us. These values are the only differences between us and them.

:shrug:

I don't know where to begin. I've never heard anyone in MMA talk trash about Bruce Lee or Gene LeBell. Maybe someone has but I'm not aware of it. Most everyone I know in MMA consider Bruce Lee a pioneer, one of the first to push the limits and encouraged people to cross-train. And Gene LeBell is a MMA god. He is MMA. He's fought in the ring on several occasions and his gym produces several of the up-and-coming MMA hopefuls. Gene LeBell is one of the most kind and generous men I have ever met... as well as one of the most dangerous. Your comments implying that MMA fighters are incapable of having good intentions or spirit are ignorant as well as insulting.

Just out of curiosity, since you have such a dim view of MMA competition, does this opinion carry over into all martial sports or just this one? What is your opinion of Boxing, Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Judo for example?

 

[Wes Tasker]

yipman_sifu -

Do you equate "internal" as having some dimension beyond just superior mechanics? Your last post seems to indicate, to me anyway, that you believe one's intent, purpose, values etc. have a large bearing on one's fighting abilities. If you do believe this, then I can see where you would differ with someone who believes that "internal" just signifies a better mechanical way of doing something, i.e. - peng, fa jing, fa li, etc.

For the record, I don't agree with your view point. But if you do believe these things than the debate is not going to go well as you hold differing definitions of the subject at hand....

-wes tasker

 

[mantis]

the argument of Sifu Hsu is that internal is basically more complex, mature techniques that rely less on force.
so the argument is internal training leads, if not equivalent, to better skill.

how did that lead you guys to think internal training has much to do with the practitioner's intent, purpose, or values?

 

[yipman_sifu]

:shrug:

I don't know where to begin. I've never heard anyone in MMA talk trash about Bruce Lee or Gene LeBell. Maybe someone has but I'm not aware of it. Most everyone I know in MMA consider Bruce Lee a pioneer, one of the first to push the limits and encouraged people to cross-train. And Gene LeBell is a MMA god. He is MMA. He's fought in the ring on several occasions and his gym produces several of the up-and-coming MMA hopefuls. Gene LeBell is one of the most kind and generous men I have ever met... as well as one of the most dangerous. Your comments implying that MMA fighters are incapable of having good intentions or spirit are ignorant as well as insulting.

Just out of curiosity, since you have such a dim view of MMA competition, does this opinion carry over into all martial sports or just this one? What is your opinion of Boxing, Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and Judo for example?

Man. GeneLeBell was offensed by people from the UFC "no need to mention names". Bruce Lee was offended by this Tank Abbot. I really mentioned his name because he is a real disgrace to any competition.
Regarding other matches. Jujitsu is not bad, because it's really nice and no bad physical insults. Regarding wrestling. I like Greco Roman (very nice). Boxing is the most effective in making injuries. I don't prefer it (Mike Tyson was enough).
Man. What I really don't like about those media martial artist is boasting. Most of them are arrogant and they show-off muscles and say "come on, I will crush you today". these words identify how they understand the martial way in its wrong path. External power + motivation is the key to victory in battle. Internal trainers reaches high level of discipline. some of them don't drink, never makes relation with girls, all the fun stuff are prohibited from their life, and of course training hard and devote their time to it. I wish you got my point friend.

 

[yipman_sifu]

the argument of Sifu Hsu is that internal is basically more complex, mature techniques that rely less on force.
so the argument is internal training leads, if not equivalent, to better skill.

how did that lead you guys to think internal training has much to do with the practitioner's intent, purpose, or values?

If it were just about simplifying the skills mantis. Animals learn how to hunt their preys with less energy as they hunt more. They know that this way of catching prey B will be easier that the caught prey A that were yesterday's meal.

I mean that if the martial arts were just learning skills without a purpose, why the hell I am learning martial arts?. Someone will come to you and ask you this question. What would be your answer?. Don't tell me that for self-defence, because it's EXTREMELY rare to get hit in the streets except if you are a problem maker, and if you are, you don't deserve to learn martial arts, because you are going to use it in the bad way.
Martial arts gives the ability for developing a way of discipline with the skill. Martial arts gives the ability to be relaxed and self-confident, not exposed to tension and feel that you can solve the problem without using any effort. That's the martial purpose in my opinion. If am saying something wrong, tell me how?.

 

[mantis]

If it were just about simplifying the skills mantis. Animals learn how to hunt their preys with less energy as they hunt more. They know that this way of catching prey B will be easier that the caught prey A that were yesterday's meal.

I mean that if the martial arts were just learning skills without a purpose, why the hell I am learning martial arts?. Someone will come to you and ask you this question. What would be your answer?. Don't tell me that for self-defence, because it's EXTREMELY rare to get hit in the streets except if you are a problem maker, and if you are, you don't deserve to learn martial arts, because you are going to use it in the bad way.
Martial arts gives the ability for developing a way of discipline with the skill. Martial arts gives the ability to be relaxed and self-confident, not exposed to tension and feel that you can solve the problem without using any effort. That's the martial purpose in my opinion. If am saying something wrong, tell me how?.

ah, so we have an addition to the definition of internal training.
you are saying for a practitioner to practice internally he has to have a purpose, and this purpose has to be positive in terms of its morality.
that's what i understood, in short, from your posts. you do bring up a good point. agreed

 

[Andrew Green]

Internal training comes from pushing yourself beyond where you are capbale. Finding the will too push on when your body wants to quit. The biggest recent example would be that Bonnar vs Griffin fight, can you honestly watch those two push their limits as hard and as far as they could, to keep coming out with everything when anyone else would have just lied down?

You mention Tank Abott, he was not a top fighter at any point, he beat a bunch of other wannabe tough guys and put on a good show. But he can't compete with any modern fighters, he tried making that comeback, didn't last.

Not to mention bad examples can be found in any sport / art.

Now you also mention Bruce Lee and Gene Lebell, two people that I'm quite sure would agree in the benefit of getting in their and going hard, seeing what you got. Bruce based a style around it, Gene was famous because of his ability to win.

"That's why they are very limited due to the little discipline they got."

You're right, training that hard, everyday, sticking to a strict diet, pushing you body that hard. What a bunch of slackers....

"but if they fight any internal trained guy, they are going to lose."

That's quite a leap of faith. Lot's of Kung Fu guys have tried fighting, and come away rather humbled. Guess none of them where any good then right?

This is pure speculation, until someone does step up and demonstrate that Tai Chi or whatever your choice is will win this is pure speculation that has absolutely no credibility. Everyone that has tried failed, and anyone that does try is "not a true master, cause a true master would never do this".

It's like me saying I could give you a death stare and kill you instantly if I wanted, but I'm not that sort of person so your lucky.

 

[yipman_sifu]

"but if they fight any internal trained guy, they are going to lose."

That's quite a leap of faith. Lot's of Kung Fu guys have tried fighting, and come away rather humbled. Guess none of them where any good then right?

This is pure speculation, until someone does step up and demonstrate that Tai Chi or whatever your choice is will win this is pure speculation that has absolutely no credibility. Everyone that has tried failed, and anyone that does try is "not a true master, cause a true master would never do this".

It's like me saying I could give you a death stare and kill you instantly if I wanted, but I'm not that sort of person so your lucky .

I didn't got exactly your point, can explain it again if you don't mind.

 

[Gaoguy]

"Internal training comes from pushing yourself beyond where you are capbale."
No it doesn't. It's a particular body method. BTW In Taiwan, where Adam Xu is from you'd refer to him as Laoshi Xu (or Xu laoshi), not Sifu. Sifu is the head cook.

 

[7starmantis]

I agree, many misunderstand "internal" training or hear too much hocus posuc about it and ignore it. IT is however not simply pushing yourself beyond what you think you can do, that is heart and drive.

7sm

 

[mantis]

"Internal training comes from pushing yourself beyond where you are capbale."
No it doesn't. It's a particular body method. BTW In Taiwan, where Adam Xu is from you'd refer to him as Laoshi Xu (or Xu laoshi), not Sifu. Sifu is the head cook.

so why dont you tell us more about internal vs. external, or did you have any comment on Adam Hsu's quote?
and we certainly do not want to call him head cook, at least not in this context, but that's what he calls himself on his website. thanks for that tip tho.

 

[green meanie]

I agree, many misunderstand "internal" training or hear too much hocus posuc about it and ignore it. IT is however not simply pushing yourself beyond what you think you can do, that is heart and drive. 7sm

It's not the product of 'clean living' either and I don't particularly care for the sentiment that internal training = 'kind, considerate, good people' and external training = 'arrogrant thugs, bullies, bad people'. Maybe it's just me but the way I interpreted Sifu Hsu's quote was that you need to build a solid base in external training before any progress in internal training can be achieved. Am I looking at this the wrong way?