Internal vs External - a comment

[Xue Sheng]

I read something today on another site that was attributed to Adam Hsu

During the end of the Ming dynasty, some none CMA scholar created the word "internal" so Chinese can argue about "internal" vs. "external" for the next 300 years.

And to be honest, if this was said by Adam Hsu, I couldn't agree with him more, except now westerns argue about it as well :asian:

 

[kidswarrior]

Kinda like arguing about which art is better, eh?

Here's something else I'd never thought about till you brought him up and I reviewed his website (been awhile): Bagua is a Northern art. Or is that just something else to argue about?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Kinda like arguing about which art is better, eh?

Here's something else I'd never thought about till you brought him up and I reviewed his website (been awhile): Bagua is a Northern art. Or is that just something else to argue about?

Technically Bagua, Taiji and Xingyi are all Northern styles... but that doesn't mean there won't be an argument about it

But the first time Neijia (internal) appeared was in 1669 and it has been a problem ever since

 

[kidswarrior]

Technically Bagua, Taiji and Xingyi are all Northern styles... but that doesn't mean there won't be an argument about it

But the first time Neijia (internal) appeared was in 1669 and it has been a problem ever since

:rofl:

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I had a teacher who would classify everything and I do mean every martial art as internal or energy work.

I think when looking at an art you will see more external used by the beginner and more internal used by the master. We can see this in the more "internal arts" with the tension of the muscles learning to relax for the beginner
and the "external arts" in which the tension has learned to relax from the master.

Either training will make a circle back to the other extreme.

 

[kidswarrior]

JCA, that's something I've thought for awhile, but didn't want to voice for fear of hurting someone's feelings. But I believe you're right.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I had a teacher who would classify everything and I do mean every martial art as internal or energy work.

I think when looking at an art you will see more external used by the beginner and more internal used by the master. We can see this in the more "internal arts" with the tension of the muscles learning to relax for the beginner
and the "external arts" in which the tension has learned to relax from the master.

Either training will make a circle back to the other extreme.

Agreed, like I said before... actually it is an old CMA saying

Internal goes to external and external goes to internal.

The problems occur, IMO, when a practitioner of either emphasizes one side to much over the other and/or when one focuses to much on the terminology

 

[Ninebird8]

There is not internal or external at the highest levels, there is only connectivity, spirit, naturalness, fa jing, root, sinking, simultaneous movement, foot action, and fluidity without thought. I learned this when I also learned the difference between technique v. natural, practice v. training, etc.

My humble opinion! Another distraction in learning the old ways. When I have been fortunate to read translations from years ago, these terms were never used, but of course they were English translations so I may have just been a gullible gwailo!! LOL!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very Very interesting post everyone.

 

[mograph]

There is not internal or external at the highest levels, there is only connectivity, spirit, naturalness, fa jing, root, sinking, simultaneous movement, foot action, and fluidity without thought.

I think most of the people arguing about internal and external haven't reached those levels.

 

[pete]

I think most of the people arguing about internal and external haven't reached those levels.

yes, and those that do reach the level UNDERSTAND and TEACH rather than argue...

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

To me, the internal/external thing are just ways to get to the attributes and skills mentioned by Ninebird8.

To me both approaches are necessary and I see no need for exclusion from each other...

since in my approach and learnings one has a higher neuromuscular training component and the other has a more cardiovascular/muscleskeletal component, both things we should emphasize for martial purposes, as well as healthy lives.

Also, the Taoist background of the CMA should embrace the balance in dualities (yin/yang), thus making it an obvious choice to balance this category of internal/external.

Also, I could categorize all day, yet that wouldn't necessarily make it a practical practice.

Or maybe it could?

I've never seen it as a fight between internal and external, as long as VERIFICATION and VALIDATION processes are in place as to gauge results and benefits.

I for one have benefited from the categorization, in that it opens up the possibility of unseen, subtle skills that can be attained with Gong Fu, and have a powerful manifestation. This permits a progressive, integrative training schedule and helps motivate and understand trainings and skills that otherwise would seem a waste of time.

More importantly, people are freakin chatterboxes, and if they can't put a name on something it usually drives them nuts until they resolve it. So you label the outside of the box "External" and the inside "Internal".

Problem solved. Let the new problem begin!

AAaaaahhhh... I really enjoy life!!! Amituofo!!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[mograph]

I once read that "internal" and "external" represent two paths up the same mountain. One path begins with a steep slope, discouraging and confounding beginners, but then levels off for the second half. The other begins with a gentle slope, encouraging beginners, but turns steep in the second half, discouraging students from continuing the path.

They both meet at the top. Then bow with respect.

 

[Formosa Neijia]

I once read that "internal" and "external" represent two paths up the same mountain. One path begins with a steep slope, discouraging and confounding beginners, but then levels off for the second half. The other begins with a gentle slope, encouraging beginners, but turns steep in the second half, discouraging students from continuing the path.

They both meet at the top. Then bow with respect.

Perhaps we're not going up the same mountains. But I guess that possibility got ignored at the outset.

 

[pete]

Perhaps we're not going up the same mountains. But I guess that possibility got ignored at the outset.

agree- two different paths, two different mountains - both reach the sky.

pete.

 

[mograph]

Perhaps we're not going up the same mountains. But I guess that possibility got ignored at the outset.

I think it's the "mountain of martial skill, regardless of style".

 

[Formosa Neijia]

I think it's the "mountain of martial skill, regardless of style".

"Martial" is only part of it for some folks. There's more to some styles than that.

 

[mograph]

"Martial" is only part of it for some folks. There's more to some styles than that.

Mountain of Enlightenment?