should tai chi forms ........

[tshadowchaser]

Why do most Tai Chi forms seem so long and should they be done slow or fast.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Why do most Tai Chi forms seem so long and should they be done slow or fast.

There usually was a traditional long form of tai chi from most styles that had the foundation of structure & techniques of the system. (Kind of like an encyclopedia)

The shorter forms were made for competition and then you have to figure there's several different variations of tai chi forms with in different families of tai chi due to the individuals (instructors from back in the day) off take of it.

But pretty much they are an encyclopedia an are long to improve your insurance.

I do my tai chi both traditional slow and will do it with a bit if ging on each technique and faster when I'm training for the application purpose. (Some people do this an some dont its all up to you).

 

[mograph]

It could be argued that Tai Chi forms started very short (thirteen postures or less), then added more postures to make the form seem more complex and valuable to prospective students. I don't think this is a new or exclusively Western phenomenon, but ... if Master A teaches a short form, and Master B teaches a long form, a lot of people would prefer to study with Master B based on the mistaken impression that he knew more than Master A. (shrug)

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

It could be argued that Tai Chi forms started very short (thirteen postures or less), then added more postures to make the form seem more complex and valuable to prospective students. I don't think this is a new or exclusively Western phenomenon, but ... if Master A teaches a short form, and Master B teaches a long form, a lot of people would prefer to study with Master B based on the mistaken impression that he knew more than Master A. (shrug)

The 13 postures are what originated the different families forms from my understanding.

I really don't know much about the other styles of tai chi but in yang style style the traditional form is 108 or 103 depending on how you count the steps.

 

[Xue Sheng]

All family styles have a long form or 2 and some family styles have fast forms, my flavor of Yang that comes from Tung Ying Chieh has 2 fast forms

The are long and slow to help with coordination and connections.

13 postures are fighting and it is likely that they came before taiji as we know it today and it is also likely there were more than 13 originally

 

[East Winds]

Section 1 of the Traditional Yang Family Long Form contains all the main elements of the form. (the 10 essences and all the energies/jins, particularly the main energy Peng) as well as the basics of learning co-ordinated movement. Section 2 expands on this learning by teaching balance (in the use of kicks) and Section 3 puts 1 and 2 together and also teaches stretching. I tend to concentrate on Section 1 and have spent over 20 years trying to get it right!!!

Very best wishes

Alistair

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The 13 postures are what originated the different families forms from my understanding.

I really don't know much about the other styles of tai chi but in yang style style the traditional form is 108 or 103 depending on how you count the steps.

You can condense that 108 move long form into about 54 moves by removing the redundant. The 3rd part of that form do contain a lot of redundancy.

 

[colemcm]

You can condense that 108 move long form into about 54 moves by removing the redundant. The 3rd part of that form do contain a lot of redundancy.

I'd hesitate to remove the redundancy though. It was put there for a reason. In my opinion, the forms should be done fast and slow; there's value in playing the same form at varying speeds.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'd hesitate to remove the redundancy though. It was put there for a reason. In my opinion, the forms should be done fast and slow; there's value in playing the same form at varying speeds.

removing the redundancies is what Cheng Manching did, however I am not certain that made it better either

 

[blindsage]

In our version of the Yang form from Tchoung Ta Tchen, it was made symmetrical, so much of the redundancy allows you to practice moves on both sides. It's longer, but I think a little more logical. I think slow serves a number of purposes, but occasionally doing it fast has benefits as well.

 

[Elbowgrease]

I think there are many reasons to practice the form slow, fast, hard, soft, smooth and fluid or rigid. With weight, without weight, etc. Some of it might not immediately present itself. Some of it might not even really be usefull, other than to teach that it is not usefull. There is a saying, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. As a musician, the first lesson is accuracy before speed. Practice ridiculously slow and you gain clarity. Speed up to early and things become slurred. I think it's ok to slur the form later, but only if you know that you can do it clearly. Learning things from their opposites can really make sense sometimes. Maybe it's not the best way to do it, but it does often make the opposite thing clear. Lately I've been using the iron rings with the yang long form. When I take them off I move much more smooth and light. It helps me focus on what parts of my body are really behind whatever motion is happening, and makes sense of the idea of "sitting on the bones". Practicing blindfolded is pretty interesting. It's really difficult, but I think I can feel things more clearly from the inside then. Try doing the form backwards (like reverse, not just in the other direction if it's an asymmetrical form). I don't know if it's really that useful when applied, but sometimes the way things move then make a little more sense.
Does that make sense?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'd hesitate to remove the redundancy though. It was put there for a reason.

In the 108 moves Taiji form, the "grasping sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times. Is it truly necessary to have that many redundant?

6 x 8 = 48
48 - 6 = 42
108 - 42 = 66

If you remove the other 7 repetitions, you can already reduce your 108 moves down to 66 moves. Besides that, the "cloud hand", "brush knee", "diagonal fly", ... all have redundant.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In the 108 moves Taiji form, the "grasping the sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times. Is it truly necessary to have that many redundant?

6 x 8 = 48
48 - 6 = 42
108 - 42 = 66

If you remove the other 7 repetition, you can already reduce your 108 moves down to 66 moves. To say that "I love you" 8 times won't make much difference from saying "I love you" just once.

as arbitrary and silly as that is.....lets see here

just those 6 moves..... left and right which is 6 x 2 which is not 12 so now your at 12 X 8 or 96 but if you look at it from the 13 postures you get 5 directions so forgetting left and right you now have 6 X 5 or 30..... now 30 X 8 = 240 so 240 - 108 is 132 so you are now shorting yourself 132 possibilities... so at 66 you are now at 174 short. The number is arbitrary and there are many different ways to count and some do not count the repeats but still do them so you get numbers in the 90s... heck the Yang family says its 103 and single whip repeats 10 times.... and I think my branch of Yang counts the same form at 96 or 98, but in all honesty my lineage simply calls it the long form and puts no number value on it. and for the record...

You really need to learn more about yang style....

 

[Elbowgrease]

Why is a symphony so long?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

as arbitrary and silly as that is..... You really need to learn more about yang style....

The "grasping sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times at:

1. 0.10 - 0.20
2. 0.51 - 0.58
3. 1.27 - 1.35
4. 2.31 - 2.38
5. 2.44 - 2.51
6. 3.10 - 3.17
7. 3.49 - 3.57
8. 4.12 - 4.18

I have taught this Chang Taiji form for more than 35 years. I believe my calculation is correct here. I have no problem to put up my Taiji form online to accept criticism.

 

[zzj]

Well, chen style has a long first form and a shorter second form. The first form is done primarily slow with some fast movements while the second form has more fast movements....just saying.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The "grasping sparrow's tail - Peng, Lu, Ji, An, double pulling, single whip" repeat 8 times at:

1. 0.10 - 0.20
2. 0.51 - 0.58
3. 1.27 - 1.35
4. 2.31 - 2.38
5. 2.44 - 2.51
6. 3.10 - 3.17
7. 3.49 - 3.57
8. 4.12 - 4.18

I have taught this Chang Taiji form for more than 35 years. I believe my calculation is correct here. I have no problem to put up my Taiji form online to accept criticism.

Yeah but that's not Yang style that's Cheng so I fail to see the reason for posting it since your reference was to 108

And I am not criticizing your form, criticizing your logic and use of math to justify 66 forms..... you do not know Traditional Yang style (and I doubt Chen as well) yet you continue to criticize Yang at every turn and yet every criticism simply shows you don't understand it. For example you have stated on more than one occasion that there is no fajin in Yang and that is incredibly wrong.

 

[Elbowgrease]

I'm kind of glad there are (however many) grasping the bird's tail, single whip, wave the hands like clouds, etc. If the idea is to practice less things more times (the one punch 10,000 times instead of the 10,000 punches one time each...), I may have done the form 10,000 times by now, I don't know, I think I lost count a while ago. I'm still not totally confident I could grasp the bird's tail properly in combat. I should probably just practice the form 10,000 more times exactly the way it was taught to me. I really don't want to have any part of flame warfare, but I think things might be getting off track. If you want to have less motion and repitition in your form, learn a different form. The entirety of the Yang long form is contained in the first motion of the form. Everything else is useful as well, but there really is a huge wealth of knowledge to be had from every single second spent practicing the form. Whichever form it is. Even if it's practiced incorrectly. As long as one knows that they are learning what is incorrect when they are not moving correctly.
My opinion.

 

[mograph]

I don't see the point in removing repetition (not "redundancy") if the repeated (not "redundant") moves are important and can benefit from extra practice. Would it kill us to practice something a little more? But if the argument is that those moves are of equal importance as the others and should not be emphasized through repetition, then I can see an argument for balancing the number of times the moves appear in the form.

But I don't see forms as inviolate; to me, principles are inviolate. If I'm doing a form alone and repeat something in the form more than it appears in a canonical form, then where's the harm, as long as principles are followed? Actually (memory psych!) it helps me encode the move more deeply by intervening in that way.

Redundant: (from Google)
- not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous.
- "this redundant brewery has been converted into a library" (not much of an example, is it?)
- synonyms: unnecessary, not required, inessential, unessential, needless, unneeded, uncalled for
- antonyms: essential, necessary
- (of words or data) able to be omitted without loss of meaning or function.

On another issue, personally, I like symmetry in a form: practicing the same move oriented to the left and right.

 

[blindsage]

I have taught this Chang Taiji form for more than 35 years. I believe my calculation is correct here. I have no problem to put up my Taiji form online to accept criticism.

Yeah but that's not Yang style that's Cheng so I fail to see the reason for posting it since your reference was to 108

And I am not criticizing your form,

Oh, but Xue, can I? Please, please, please?