Short 2 - lets see what we can dig out!

[Kyoshi]

Yeah - as the title says - lets see what we can find.

Just continue the list - so we have everything updated all the way:

We advance with a block
We attack with the first hand
We learn to defend and attack at the same time
We learn the wide kneel
We learn the knuckle attack, which has no backup
We learn the half fist
We learn the open palm
We learn the difference in checks and blocks, by the rotational momentum

We begin on a new pattern
We have our hands ready, and not cocked in the side
We learn to cock high and low
We learn to keep the same higth when moving up and down

In the first 2 movements, we let the chest come to the front hand and not the front hand back to the chest.

What else?
Remember to continue the list!

Thanks
-N

 

[punisher73]

Adding onto the "advance with a block". This is the first time (in forms) that we move INTO the attack instead of back like in short/long 1. It can be that we are more experienced and choose to move in, or we can't move back to create distance and have to move in.

We are also introduced to the 45 degree angles creating an "*" pattern on the floor + and X.

Along with the middle knuckle fist, we are introduced to dropping underneath a punch as we turn into the unknown. Before in the forms, we would cover step to see what was behind us.

 

[Blindside]

I have a question on the raking middle knuckle attack. Whats the point? Is this just category completion or is there much of a functional use for this particular attack? My lineage replaced that with a center knuckle uppercut for lack of a better term.

Also, I'm assuming the student isn't actually "learning this for the first time," only that we are assembling in a form for the first time. I've worked out and studied under several different AK instructors, but not really pursuing belt advancement, and I'm assuming that the curriculum behind the forms trains these aspects independently of the form. Is that correct?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I have a question on the raking middle knuckle attack. Whats the point? Is this just category completion or is there much of a functional use for this particular attack? My lineage replaced that with a center knuckle uppercut for lack of a better term.

Also, I'm assuming the student isn't actually "learning this for the first time," only that we are assembling in a form for the first time. I've worked out and studied under several different AK instructors, but not really pursuing belt advancement, and I'm assuming that the curriculum behind the forms trains these aspects independently of the form. Is that correct?

Raking occurs because you are dropping height. I would recomend a vertical punch, considering you are droppping. An uppercutt would seem to conflict.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yeah - as the title says - lets see what we can find.

Just continue the list - so we have everything updated all the way:

We advance with a block
We attack with the first hand
We learn to defend and attack at the same time
We learn the wide kneel
We learn the knuckle attack, which has no backup
We learn the half fist
We learn the open palm
We learn the difference in checks and blocks, by the rotational momentum

We begin on a new pattern
We have our hands ready, and not cocked in the side
We learn to cock high and low
We learn to keep the same higth when moving up and down

In the first 2 movements, we let the chest come to the front hand and not the front hand back to the chest.

What else?
Remember to continue the list!

Thanks
-N

A wide kneel just means you aren't close kneeling.
Sean

 

[Blindside]

Raking occurs because you are dropping height. I would recomend a vertical punch, considering you are droppping. An uppercutt would seem to conflict.
Sean

Actually, we aren't dropping height there, we are actually rising from under, different from the standard AK or Tracy fare, but still introducing something new to the student.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Actually, we aren't dropping height there, we are actually rising from under, different from the standard AK or Tracy fare, but still introducing something new to the student.

I can't argue that. because, when I learned the form, they told me not to expect that everyone sees it the way they do; so, you are absolutly right! You could do this as a rise; however, the foot work will be different from the way we do it.
sean

 

[Kyoshi]

Concerning the raking mid knuckle strike - we learned that its a purposely build-in-flaw. Which forces us to think about every technique we do, not just how but also the why.

And yes, the first time in the forms that we meet the techniques.

We also have the combined power principles!

 

[Flying Crane]

Concerning the raking mid knuckle strike - we learned that its a purposely build-in-flaw. Which forces us to think about every technique we do, not just how but also the why.

And yes, the first time in the forms that we meet the techniques.

We also have the combined power principles!

no, it's not. Flaws were not intentionally built into the forms and other material. that is a silly myth.

 

[Blindside]

Concerning the raking mid knuckle strike - we learned that its a purposely build-in-flaw. Which forces us to think about every technique we do, not just how but also the why.

And yes, the first time in the forms that we meet the techniques.

We also have the combined power principles!

So we are asking a beginner level student to intentional commit a flaw into muscle memory? Um.... yikes.

 

[Blindside]

no, it's not. Flaws were not intentionally built into the forms and other material. that is a silly myth.

So what is the functional purpose of the entry line? Presumably, the inclusion in the form means it something of significant value.

 

[Flying Crane]

So what is the functional purpose of the entry line? Presumably, the inclusion in the form means it something of significant value.

It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.

This is my view from the Tracy perspective. We don't do a lot of the categorization and theorizing and whatnot that it seems people from other lineages do. To us, this is just a useful defensive combo.

But, the notion that Mr. Parker built intentional flaws into the material is silly and is not true. It's a silly idea to begin with and I'd hope that a minimal amount of critical thinking would see it as such. And, Doc has directly said as much. I think a lot of people don't realize what they are doing with the movements, and they chalk it up to some deliberate flaw engineered in by Mr. Parker. It's nonsense to think that is what happened.

 

[Blindside]

It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.

This is my view from the Tracy perspective. We don't do a lot of the categorization and theorizing and whatnot that it seems people from other lineages do. To us, this is just a useful defensive combo.

So you are doing a thrust, then the downward rake? That is different than several AK lineages than I have seen, which just do the downward rake.

 

[Flying Crane]

So you are doing a thrust, then the downward rake? That is different than several AK lineages than I have seen, which just do the downward rake.

yup, thrust to drive the knuckle between the ribs. Traumatizing the intercostal muscles, all the little muscles that run between the ribs, can leave him hurting for weeks. Then rake.

There are a lot of nerves along the rib area, and it's sensitive. That area that is covered and protected by the arm when the arm is hanging down normally. When you get under the arm and hit the torso in the rib area down the sides, it's sensitive.

 

[CoryKS]

It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.

That's how it was shown to (and demonstrated on) me. Sure as hell didn't feel like a flaw.

 

[MattJ]

FWIW, I do remember hearing that Mr. Parker had intentionally designed some absurd/impractical elements into kenpo training. I can't find any direct links to Mr Parker mentioning that, though. The closest I could find was this:

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/origin_of_american_kenpo.htmhttp://www.americankenpo.com/dedication.html

Not only was the student to learn the "why" of the move, but by simplifying the techniques, Ed believed his new system could be tailored to the individual who would perfect it according to his own physical size and athletic ability. American Kenpo forms were taught with hidden meaning so only the perspicacious would see what was intended. The system was designed to lead the student through tangled and obscure paths, where the instructor was to point out the meaning of each twist or turn. Then, when it all came together, the student--the Ed Parker black belt--was to emerge from the darkness into the light of new understanding. The black belt would only need to know about 100 applications of his new system, as Ed believed his understanding of the "why" of the movement would replace all of the "techniques" of other Kenpo systems.

I'm taking this with a grain of salt until I can find some direct proof that Mr Parker actually meant this.

 

[Flying Crane]

FWIW, I do remember hearing that Mr. Parker had intentionally designed some absurd/impractical elements into kenpo training. I can't find any direct links to Mr Parker mentioning that, though. The closest I could find was this:

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/origin_of_american_kenpo.htm



I'm taking this with a grain of salt until I can find some direct proof that Mr Parker actually meant this.

Yeah, I don't see anything in there that indicated he actually deliberately inserted flaws in order to mislead the less intelligent, and to "test" his top students.

I will say this, however: there is plenty in the kenpo that I study that quite honestly I would never be able to use for real. There is also material that I personally feel might not be realistic. There is also material that I feel is flawed for various reasons. I will never argue with someone who feels this way, because ultimately the method comes down to the individual, and how well he can use what he has.

Could a better understanding on my part eliminate some of these problems that I see? Probably. But I still think some of it could be done away with and it would be to the betterment of the system.

But that is still a far cry from the claim that Mr. Parker deliberately inserted flawed material. I think that any system will have some material that could be considered suspect. That doesn't mean somebody deliberately tried to mislead anyone.

 

[Flying Crane]

So you are doing a thrust, then the downward rake? That is different than several AK lineages than I have seen, which just do the downward rake.

can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?

 

[Blindside]

can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?

Nope, thats why I was asked the question in the first place.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nope, thats why I was asked the question in the first place.

ah, gotcha.

Has Ted Sumner come up and worked with your group on occasion?