Short 2 - lets see what we can dig out!

[Blindside]

ah, gotcha.

Has Ted Sumner come up and worked with your group on occasion?

Not to my knowledge. We were and are a bit of an orphan lineage, we're off the Tracy line with inputs from several AK sources later. We are mostly doing our own thing, there really wasn't a whole lot of other Tracy folks around Wyoming. Since I've moved to Washington I hooked up with an even more muttish Kenpo group (with major roots in Tracy), but have been spending most of my time on my Kali training group.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not to my knowledge. We were and are a bit of an orphan lineage, we're off the Tracy line with inputs from several AK sources later. We are mostly doing our own thing, there really wasn't a whole lot of other Tracy folks around Wyoming. Since I've moved to Washington I hooked up with an even more muttish Kenpo group (with major roots in Tracy), but have been spending most of my time on my Kali training group.

Ah, ok. I know Ted had gone up somewhere to work with a group, thought it might have been yours. Guess not, tho.

Anyway, Ted is a strong source of info when it comes to the specifics of application in the Tracy techs and what can be extrapolated from the forms if it's not a specific tech. I've been studying under him for over three years now, he's helped clarify a whole lot of stuff for me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?

You are dropping as a result of covering at that angle, a thrust would then have its own natural dropping motion; so, you aren't raking down, but dropping which creates a raking motion.
Sean

 

[Doc]

It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.

This is my view from the Tracy perspective. We don't do a lot of the categorization and theorizing and whatnot that it seems people from other lineages do. To us, this is just a useful defensive combo.

But, the notion that Mr. Parker built intentional flaws into the material is silly and is not true. It's a silly idea to begin with and I'd hope that a minimal amount of critical thinking would see it as such. And, Doc has directly said as much. I think a lot of people don't realize what they are doing with the movements, and they chalk it up to some deliberate flaw engineered in by Mr. Parker. It's nonsense to think that is what happened.

"I don't know what I'm doing so it must be a flawed form or technique." Sounds like something a white belt would say to make excuses for what they don't know. Now the scary part is, the high ranking people that use that same line. You're right on the money Mike, and even though you are not a Parker Kenpo Karate student, your explanation of the move functionally makes more sense than the stuff some others have "dreamed" up, and is amazingly close to what Ed Parker taught me. Common sense is a ***** isn't it.

 

[Doc]

Ah, ok. I know Ted had gone up somewhere to work with a group, thought it might have been yours. Guess not, tho.

Anyway, Ted is a strong source of info when it comes to the specifics of application in the Tracy techs and what can be extrapolated from the forms if it's not a specific tech. I've been studying under him for over three years now, he's helped clarify a whole lot of stuff for me.

Had dinner with Ted friday night. Great guy.

 

[punisher73]

Flying Crane wrote:

can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?

Nope, thats why I was asked the question in the first place.

Many lineages suggest the usage of the downward middle knuckle strike as "nipping the tip" (also called that in Infinite Insights Vol 5). Some employ is almost as a knuckle whip to the scrotum area. It is not taught as a punch at all.

Note: I am NOT saying I agree with this application or that it is THE application, just responding on what I have seen others teach it as.

 

[Kyoshi]

Guys - Stick to the topic please....

What do you guys focus on, when doing short2, what theory is behind it?
(im rather in need for some kenpo-injections, since my regular training is cancelled tonight!!)

 

[Flying Crane]

Guys - Stick to the topic please....

What do you guys focus on, when doing short2, what theory is behind it?
(im rather in need for some kenpo-injections, since my regular training is cancelled tonight!!)

I believe we have been absolutely on topic. We've had a few people from different lineages give input regarding a particular section of the form. We've discussed and given different examples of how that particular section might be used, and what can be learned from it. How much more "on topic" can we get?

I'll give you what my take is, in what we are doing with kenpo kata, whether it's Short Two or any of the others. Again, this is from the perspective of my understanding, coming from training in the Tracy lineage. I get the feeling that there may be fundamental differences in how Tracy people view this kind of thing, compared to other lineages, so I won't be surprised if other people see it differently. I also am speaking strictly about Kenpo kata here, vs. kata or forms as they are practiced in other systems. I believe kenpo kata may have been constructed somewhat differently than how other systems built their kata, and this has an effect on what it is you are doing and how you do it.

What are we doing with kenpo kata? We are practicing our options, and learning to flow from one to another while maintaining the integrity of the methods.

Hopefully, the fundamentals have been established and are understood. What I mean by this is, how the stances work, how one uses the stances as a foundation for delivering techniques like a punch or a block, how torque and pivot and stance changes are used to deliver these techniques, how a proper punch or other hand strike is delivered, how a proper kick is delivered, how to step thru to the next stance, etc. These things are, hopefully, already established within the basics.

These things are then put together in the kata, whether it's a basics kata like Short One and Long One, or a "technique" kata like Long Three or Long Four. Either way, no matter which kata you are doing, you should be executing every single movement or combination of movements, with the foundation intact. On a basics kata like Long one, every step, every block, every punch, every cover, every shift, you should be maintaining proper stances, and executing the techniques with proper delivery. On a Techniques kata like Long Three, you are executing SD techs that you probably have already learned as stand-alone material. Each of these techniques within the kata, should likewise be executed with proper foundation and delivery. Just because it is strung together into a kata doesn't mean you get lazy and just "get thru" the kata.

My White Crane sigung expresses it very clearly, and I think it applies in kenpo as well: The kata itself does not matter. The kata is just a sequence, like a dance. By itself as a unit, it is meaningless. However, every single movement within the kata matters and is important. Every single movement must be done correctly, or it is worthless. So, just "getting thru" the kata is a waste of time. Wanting to learn another kata to "get thru" the material for the next belt test, is a waste of time. Blazing thru the kata as if your pants are on fire, is a waste of time. You need to slow down and pay attention to everything. If you don't take the time to do every movement within the kata correctly, with proper foundation and delivery, then you are just dancing. Quality is far far more important than speed. Take a look thru Youtube and tell me how much speed you see, in kenpo videos.

So, getting back to Short Two. From the Tracy perspective, we are doing a series of useful self defense applications. Some of these are contained within our curriculum as named, stand-alone SD techs. Much of this form is not such, but it is still very clearly applicable as such. We are learning to move and execute these techniques, and flow from one to the next. But if you let your foundation and delivery get sloppy, then you aren't learning anything from it.