mikeXedge
White Belt
Does anyone train in Shao-lin Do... i just recieved my third brown under grandmaster sinthe... i really like the style and would like to hear others opinions on the system...
Shao-lin Do
- Thread starter mikeXedge
- Start date
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I trained it for a while when I was in college in the early 1990s. I was taught most of the material up thru brown belt very quickly, in a semester or two, and I think I didn't learn it very well. Simply too much too quickly. Therefor I am reluctant to give a strong opinion because I think I didn't understand it well enough. I have basically let it go and don't practice it anymore and don't remember much of it.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5419&highlight=shao-lin
You should read this thread.
You should read this thread.
- Thread Starter
- #4
wow... i read through some of that thread... but most of it was just a kick in my balls... i can't believe that so many martial artists are talking like that about a style most have only claimed to see... i've personally trained under grandmaster sin kwang the and he is an amazing martial artist... i'm not claiming to be an athority on good martial artists... but i've been training since i could walk... and i almost mean that literally... and i have met with some damn good martial artists... and sin the beyond good... also master jeff rose is my instructor and their is no denying his abilty... i am sadned to see others opinion on shao-lin do... but i know that it works for me...
If it works for you, yee hah... but it's not what it says it is. I spent 5 years in SD, went to China, blah blah blah blah... it's not what it purports to be. It has pieces of things, some whole things but incomplete training for, and the rest... I'm not getting into.
If SD were called kuntao or The` family fu... no problem. But it's not Shaolin kungfu. It has pieces of it & believe me I can point out the sticking points, from technical application to function application of theory to history. It just doesn't jive.
So if it works for you & you're ok with it... cool. Just don't expect a lot of support from TCMA practitioners. Actually, since I've been in both worlds, there's even less from me for SD. The people are nice, but the system isn't what it says it is.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Hey Mike,
I can understand how you feel, that thread isn't very flattering. I guess in a way it can be chalked up to politics in the martial arts. Don't let it bother you, I hope you stick around and contribute here in the forums.
Since I spent some time with Shao-lin Do, I have always been curious about it. I mentioned in another thread that the White Crane forms in the lower belts don't look anything like the Tibetan White Crane that I study now, nor does it look anything like the video footage I have seen of Fukien White Crane. Do you know where this White Crane comes from? I wouldn't be surprised if there are other Chinese arts that go under the name "White Crane", and they are just more obscure than the Tibetan and Fukien styles. I would personally be interested in knowing a little more history about the material in the system.
I haven't seen anything outside of SD that refers to "Bird" forms, and I am also curious to know where the Tiger forms come from. I am asking this in all sincerity, these are questions I didn't know enough to even think of asking when I was practicing SD. It is only with the experiences that I have had later on that I realized there are so many different arts. I would certainly welcome any further information about this system that you might have.
If you feel your training is good quality, that is all that really matters. Mr. The makes some lineage claims that many people find suspicious, but to tell the truth, I have no stake in the argument one way or the other. If you trust your teacher and the training you receive from him, don't let the opinion of others here raise your hackles.
Cheers.
Michael
- Thread Starter
- #7
thank you flying crane...
i'm not going anywhere... so far i like most everything about martialtalk.com and the more i read through that thread i realized that there were alot of differing opinions... the only reason that i was upset about the shao-lin do thread is because i was doing pushing hands all day with my wing chun friend and got real stoked on martial arts then read about a bunch of people that thought my system was worthless...
anyway... about the lower ranking bird forms... it was explained to me as being more of a bird syle history... bird styles just being the different bird systems... so far i've learned three white crane forms... my sifu explained the history to me... but it was alot to absorb... and i'll have to review it with him before i can really put it down... the forms are white crane circles its wings... flips its wings... and flips its feet... and big bird spreads its wings is a non white crane bird form... and they are all in chinese so my translation may be way off... one major thing i've gotten from these bird forms... is that they apply really well to my pushy hands... they have actually taken it to another level completly...
the first tiger form i learned is called fei foo tzu tung flying tiger jumps out of cave... i am going to study up on these a little more... so i can better contribute...
there is a list of katas at http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml... i'm am up to San Njie...
i'm not going anywhere... so far i like most everything about martialtalk.com and the more i read through that thread i realized that there were alot of differing opinions... the only reason that i was upset about the shao-lin do thread is because i was doing pushing hands all day with my wing chun friend and got real stoked on martial arts then read about a bunch of people that thought my system was worthless...
anyway... about the lower ranking bird forms... it was explained to me as being more of a bird syle history... bird styles just being the different bird systems... so far i've learned three white crane forms... my sifu explained the history to me... but it was alot to absorb... and i'll have to review it with him before i can really put it down... the forms are white crane circles its wings... flips its wings... and flips its feet... and big bird spreads its wings is a non white crane bird form... and they are all in chinese so my translation may be way off... one major thing i've gotten from these bird forms... is that they apply really well to my pushy hands... they have actually taken it to another level completly...
the first tiger form i learned is called fei foo tzu tung flying tiger jumps out of cave... i am going to study up on these a little more... so i can better contribute...
there is a list of katas at http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml... i'm am up to San Njie...
Mike, you should google Shao-lin Do. Run some searches on other engines. People are saying all over that Shaolin Do claims to teach their art, but that it is a confused or incorrect version of the art. Also, several of the arts appear to be unknown elsewhere - multiple unknown arts is a pretty sure sign of trouble.
- Thread Starter
- #9
Rook...
the stuff i've learned so far is, no matter where it comes from, good... it fits me well and feels right... i've been doing martial arts my whole life... i know i'm young, 19... but that doesn't change the fact that if feels right... i appreciate you looking after your fellow martial artists... but i've trained under some real shady black belts... and in my experience you can just feel it... and i feel it here... google isn't gonna change it for me...
the stuff i've learned so far is, no matter where it comes from, good... it fits me well and feels right... i've been doing martial arts my whole life... i know i'm young, 19... but that doesn't change the fact that if feels right... i appreciate you looking after your fellow martial artists... but i've trained under some real shady black belts... and in my experience you can just feel it... and i feel it here... google isn't gonna change it for me...
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I do not train Shaolin-do, but my understanding of it is that it is a conglomerate of styles and philosophies both Chinese and Japanese, possibly a bit of Korean.
It has taken parts of white crane and tiger and others and in some cases changed the names or added to the names in order to make the style. This is not saying anything about its effectiveness or reputation. Liu He Ba Fa is a combination of Xingyi, Tai Chi and Bagua and it is a very good style and there are many other styles that have done similar things as well.
Bottom-line: If you are happy in your training with your teacher at your school that is all the matters and who cares what anyone else thinks.
It has taken parts of white crane and tiger and others and in some cases changed the names or added to the names in order to make the style. This is not saying anything about its effectiveness or reputation. Liu He Ba Fa is a combination of Xingyi, Tai Chi and Bagua and it is a very good style and there are many other styles that have done similar things as well.
Bottom-line: If you are happy in your training with your teacher at your school that is all the matters and who cares what anyone else thinks.
Taijiman
Orange Belt
SD has a lot of dihonesty in its past, but if it's the best you can find, well, stick with it I guess. Since you asked for opinions though:
The history is defenitely not true, whether it's something Sin The made up or fabricated by one of his teachers I couldn't say though.
The forms themselves are a mixed back. Some are move for move identical from what you'd find in a book or perfectly recognizable to some (Tiger and Crane form... the Hua longfist forms for example), some are legit forms that have been renamed as something they're not with some awkward extra moves added in (I believe they're old Yang taiji form (60 something move?) is actually a modified version version of Cheng Man Ching's 37 move Yang form (a very modern form). Others bare no resemblance to anything, such as their Buddah Fist form... though one person told me it looked like a non-Chinese martial art exercise routine he'd done before.
Can't comment much on actual skill... seen videos of Sin The and have come across people I feel are much more skilled here in the U.S. and in China, but it's hard to comment too much without actually testing the guy out. I can say I'd probably pick him over most of the other McDojo 2 year black belt factory schools out there if I didn't have the CMA experience, so I can see why his org. can get so big and he can have many dedicated students. It's not like he's some weakling who couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag
The history is defenitely not true, whether it's something Sin The made up or fabricated by one of his teachers I couldn't say though.
The forms themselves are a mixed back. Some are move for move identical from what you'd find in a book or perfectly recognizable to some (Tiger and Crane form... the Hua longfist forms for example), some are legit forms that have been renamed as something they're not with some awkward extra moves added in (I believe they're old Yang taiji form (60 something move?) is actually a modified version version of Cheng Man Ching's 37 move Yang form (a very modern form). Others bare no resemblance to anything, such as their Buddah Fist form... though one person told me it looked like a non-Chinese martial art exercise routine he'd done before.
Can't comment much on actual skill... seen videos of Sin The and have come across people I feel are much more skilled here in the U.S. and in China, but it's hard to comment too much without actually testing the guy out. I can say I'd probably pick him over most of the other McDojo 2 year black belt factory schools out there if I didn't have the CMA experience, so I can see why his org. can get so big and he can have many dedicated students. It's not like he's some weakling who couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag
Taijiman
Orange Belt
BTW, I think some of his students cause too many problems too with screwing up stories and contributing uncredited material to their own curriculums. The two most memorable examples for me:
1.For awhile many Shaolin-Do students were claiming that the abbot of the Shaolin Temple in China had errected a stone tablet at the Temple recognizing Sin The as the Grandmaster of Shaolin Kungfu. The truth was that he made a nice sized monetary donation to the temple and they put up the stone tablet as apreciation (kind of like where you have your name or organization put on a brick for a library donation...).
2.I saw the 24 move taiji form (the modern form created by Li Tian Ji's comitee in '56) added to some schools curriculums and renamed "Shaolin 24 taiji form" describing it as combining the best techniques of the 5 major Shaolin taiji styles (which it clearly is not).
Anyway, that's about as much as I can say on the subject right now. I don't mind talking to SD people as long as it's about training methods and the like I know I'm new to the board, but I figured I'd get that out of the way since there seem to be some SD people here. That's my stance, and I do believe opinion on the matter is based on more legitimate concerns than a funny name and karate uniforms unlike some critics out there Though I realize my opinions and views aren't allways going to be liked by everyone, I hope they realize that I still try to be as respectful as I can even on touchy subjects
1.For awhile many Shaolin-Do students were claiming that the abbot of the Shaolin Temple in China had errected a stone tablet at the Temple recognizing Sin The as the Grandmaster of Shaolin Kungfu. The truth was that he made a nice sized monetary donation to the temple and they put up the stone tablet as apreciation (kind of like where you have your name or organization put on a brick for a library donation...).
2.I saw the 24 move taiji form (the modern form created by Li Tian Ji's comitee in '56) added to some schools curriculums and renamed "Shaolin 24 taiji form" describing it as combining the best techniques of the 5 major Shaolin taiji styles (which it clearly is not).
Anyway, that's about as much as I can say on the subject right now. I don't mind talking to SD people as long as it's about training methods and the like
I know I'm new to the board, but I figured I'd get that out of the way since there seem to be some SD people here. That's my stance, and I do believe opinion on the matter is based on more legitimate concerns than a funny name and karate uniforms unlike some critics out there Though I realize my opinions and views aren't allways going to be liked by everyone, I hope they realize that I still try to be as respectful as I can even on touchy subjects
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Yes, I learned these sets as well and I have a vague recollection of them, tho I've pretty much let them go and don't practice them anymore. I doubt if I could pull them out of memory at this point. I learned these in about 1990 or so.
If you get a chance to review the history of these sets with your sifu, where they come from, etc., I for one would be interested in hearing about it.
One thing about SD that someone mentioned in another thread is that since it's lineage traces thru Indonesia, it is probably a form of Kuntao which, if I understand correctly, is a name attached to the mixture of Chinese and Indonesian fighting systems that developed when ethnic Chinese immigrated to Indonesia for various reasons in the last couple centuries, or so. If this is true, it could be an answer as to why people outside SD feel the elements of SD that parallel their arts are so different and "wrong" compared to the parent art. Things get mixed in a new environment, bringing in elements of the Indonesian arts and changing things based on new environment and circumstances, so it would not necessarily remain identical to the original parent art. This could also explain why elements of SD seem to be completely unknown in the Chinese arts outside of SD: these elements would have developed in the newer context of Indonesia. That is certainly an explanation that I can accept, and I think there is nothing wrong with that at all.
Maybe it is a marketing ploy to call it (Chinese) Shaolin, since the general public recognizes that name more easily than Kuntao, and technically, if it traces its roots back to Shaolin, it isn't exactly a lie, altho it's not the whole truth. But then again, I see people making the claim that Kenpo traces its roots back to Shaolin as well, a claim that I feel is questionable but unverifiable and therfor difficult to argue for or against. If it is true, then it is certainly a route that is curved and twisted to the point where it probably can't be precisely mapped out.
Anyway, thanks for your willingness to share info.
