Schools Offer Kids "Paychecks"

[Gordon Nore]

I just finished reading the entire article, and it doesn't seem to say much about the school, except that it is a charter school. Can someone fill me in on what constitutes a charter school in a given State?

I have a vague recollection of charter schools springing up in the old City of Toronto school board, but that was back in the seventies. Are these schools founded by parents? Are they part of a school board? Are they partnered with corporations?

In the absence of understanding why this school chose this method, I'm ok with certain incentive models, particularly those that reward improvements in behaviour, work habits, interpersonal skills. Like regular instruction and evaluation, they need to be modified for kids with identified behavioural and learning needs, or some students are doomed from outset.

Beyond the honour roll and a certificate, I don't care for rewarding grades on a school level. All the children in my school are students, and, as I said before, I think a variety of contributions need to be recognized, whether or not they are tangibly awarded.

 

[MJS]

Quite simply, most people are lazy. I include myself in this, despite living a successful life with significant educational and job achievements. Most people will only do what they have to do to get what they want. It would be nice if everyone had the discipline to do what they are "supposed" to do for no reward, but that just isn't reality. If bribery is what works, then bribery is what should be used. The alternative is for them to NOT do their homework (or whatever) and we as adults know what will benefit them in the long run while most kids just aren't that good at long term thinking.

But the fact remains that many jobs and schools don't offer incentives, so lazy or not, people have to do what they have to do.

Well, they will leave school at some point...at which time, they will get jobs with actual paychecks.

True, and a high school diploma will mean the difference between something good or flipping burgers.

As I said in a few other posts, I'm not totally against it. Incentives are good and boost moral. But keep in mind that its not a policy that every school or place of employment is going to offer them.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

This program works well. It works real well with Kids who are S.E.D. because it gives them something to strive for. Example you are given almost no freedom your family is poor and the school chooses lunch for you. This system allows you to see the reward of hard work in a real life setting by giving you a way to have more freedom to earn things you normally could not buy and to choose your own lunch.

 

[Kreth]

Would you like to work a 35 hour week, with work you have to do home that could make it a 60 hour week, with no pay?

Ask your teachers... I'm willing to bet they put in more hours, in a traditionally low-paying profession.

 

[MJS]

Would you like to work a 35 hour week, with work you have to do home that could make it a 60 hour week, with no pay?

What about people that are on salary vs. hourly?

 

[CuongNhuka]

Ask your teachers... I'm willing to bet they put in more hours, in a traditionally low-paying profession.

Actually, a good chunk of my teachers give homework straight out of the book (so they don't have to come up with the test or the answer key), grade homework by simply by "is the exactly the right answer", and give test on scantrons, so they don't have to grade tests. A few have told me that they actually do very little outside of school (having two study halls amounting to 90 minutes of time to check homework/grade tests).

Now, are there teachers that are the exact opposite? Sure, but there are many more teachers who do as little as possible.

Besides, if you had your choice, would you rather do a job that pays little, or doesn't pay at all? Keep in mind, doing the job were you don't get paid will not look good on your next job application.

 

[Kreth]

Now, are there teachers that are the exact opposite? Sure, but there are many more teachers who do as little as possible.

So based on comments from two of your teachers, you feel qualified to expound on the work ethic of the entire profession? :idunno:

Besides, if you had your choice, would you rather do a job that pays little, or doesn't pay at all? Keep in mind, doing the job were you don't get paid will not look good on your next job application.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this. But I do know that a diploma (your non-paying "job") looks much better on a resume than not having one...

 

[CuongNhuka]

What about people that are on salary vs. hourly?

A job with no pay, is a job with no pay.

It occurs to me that if I explain why I'm so very for this policy, it might explain a few things. I went to an inner city school, in a poor neighborhood. The community around the school was about 50% hispanic, and 25% first/second generation (non-hispanic) immigrant. Almost everyone is in the lower-middle class and below. About 25% of my schools seniors did not gradaute on itme, many will not graduate at all. These are not dumb kids, infact they're some of the brightest and most inquisitive people I've meant (and I'm comparing them to the upper-middle class folks I've met). They're also very hard workers. But that 25% does have a reason for not graduationg on itme. They don't have enough time to study or go to school.
Imagine you live below the poverty line (most of the people in this community flirt with that line), and you are 17, and have three little brothers and sisters. Everyone in your family who can work, does. You have a job flipping burgers at the local BK. At this point, you have two choices: A, keep going to school, knowing you probably wont go to college so a high school diploma isn't of much use to you OR B, quite school and work full time. Most of those kids that wont graduate on time, that is the condition they live in. If they get payed for good grades, you can imagine that they will be much more willing to go to school and graduate on time.

I know that the school in the article is not a high school, but I think the princple stands. It's not a bribe, it's the only thing keeping poor kids in school.

 

[arnisador]

A free education is a huge benefit. Look at what private schools cost and calculte the benefit one receives by getting it. I know kids don't think that way, but it's very true.

It also benefits the parents who are relieved of caring for the child during that time and educating the child in many specific academic areas.

 

[Kacey]

I know that the school in the article is not a high school, but I think the princple stands. It's not a bribe, it's the only thing keeping poor kids in school.

As a teacher in a low-income school - we have a similar system, and where I teach, the kids you're referring to don't care. They don't want the reward bucks; they want cash. They can't legally stay home - many of the students who want to be elsewhere are court ordered to attend, on pain of being placed in foster care; their parents make them go to school so they don't lose custody and get their Welfare benefits cut.

As far as how hard teachers work... I don't generally take work home, that's true; on the other hand, my scheduled hours are 8-4, and I'm usually at school from 7-4:30. Yes, I have 2 class periods a day that are student-free - of those 10 periods a week, 6 are mandatory meetings, so I really only get 4, 47-minute periods a week, not 10... which would be why I come so early and stay late, so I don't have to take the work home with me. Also, I have to do paperwork on a computer program that only works on computers connected to the district server - so I can't take that home.

You're young, and you're an idealist - and there's nothing wrong with that. But you need to look outside your own experience; just because it's the way you say where you are doesn't mean that's they way it is all over. You have some good ideas - but you need to realize that other people, with different experiences (many with more experience) than yourself are going to come up with good ideas too, and they may be different good ideas than the ones you have now.

 

[MJS]

A job with no pay, is a job with no pay.

I'm going to assume that you know the difference between the two? You said this:

"Would you like to work a 35 hour week, with work you have to do home that could make it a 60 hour week, with no pay?"

You are getting compensated for working more than 40hrs, but its also part of the package that you may have to work more, even if you are not seeing time and a half for it. There is no OT with salary.

It occurs to me that if I explain why I'm so very for this policy, it might explain a few things. I went to an inner city school, in a poor neighborhood. The community around the school was about 50% hispanic, and 25% first/second generation (non-hispanic) immigrant. Almost everyone is in the lower-middle class and below. About 25% of my schools seniors did not gradaute on itme, many will not graduate at all. These are not dumb kids, infact they're some of the brightest and most inquisitive people I've meant (and I'm comparing them to the upper-middle class folks I've met). They're also very hard workers. But that 25% does have a reason for not graduationg on itme. They don't have enough time to study or go to school.

I'm curious about the bold part. They're not going to graduate, yet these people are not dumb, they are bright. They're not going to graduate but they're hard workers. They don't have enough time to study or go to school. Could you explain this please.

Imagine you live below the poverty line (most of the people in this community flirt with that line), and you are 17, and have three little brothers and sisters. Everyone in your family who can work, does. You have a job flipping burgers at the local BK. At this point, you have two choices: A, keep going to school, knowing you probably wont go to college so a high school diploma isn't of much use to you OR B, quite school and work full time. Most of those kids that wont graduate on time, that is the condition they live in. If they get payed for good grades, you can imagine that they will be much more willing to go to school and graduate on time.

Dude, this sounds to me that the people don't have any faith or confidence in themselves. You're quite wrong when you say that the high school diploma has no use. It has alot of use, because many jobs, aside from those burger joints, will at least want a HS diploma. Just because someone lives below the poverty line doesnt mean that we should shove them to the side and put them in the useless group. Why couldnt they still work hard in school, get the diploma and make something of themselves? Of course, the person has to want to put in that effort. IIRC, it was you that said that HS is when kids get introduced to the real world. So if thats the case, people should know that in the real world, you need to put forth some effort and not expect handouts, and that by dropping out of HS, that isn't going to help them much in the real world.

Let me ask you this. If we go with what you're saying...give the kids the incentive so they have more desire to go to school, whats going to happen when they get out? Are they going to have that desire to get a job? I doubt someone is going to pay them to fill out an application. So you're right back to square one.

 

[morph4me]

My wife taught in inner citys schools for 34 years, she used to get to work at 6:30 to help kids who were interested in extra help and wouldn't get home till 5:00 -5:30 and then she'd spend the next few hours preparing for classes, doing paperwork, making phone calls to parents. During the summer, when school was out, she attended classes and workshops to make her a better teacher. She also developed a very successful anti bias program which cut down the violent racial incidents in the school and made it safer and more conducive to learning. For all that extra work, she recieved exactlly nothing but satisfactory evaluations, because the only two kinds of evaluations were satisfactory and unsatisfactory. She wasn't the only teacher doing these things, she had plenty of company, teachers who weren't in it for the money, but thought they could make a difference.

Like anyone else, teachers can only do so much, they have to deal with the state, the system, the parents and excuses from the students. Everybody can come up with reasons that they can't do something, but in reality if it's important to you, you find a way.

I don't have a problem with incentives, if they work, but the fact is they don't work with everybody, and there are going to be people who always expect something for doing what they are supposed to do.

Sorry for the rant :asian:

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'm curious about the bold part. They're not going to graduate, yet these people are not dumb, they are bright. They're not going to graduate but they're hard workers. They don't have enough time to study or go to school. Could you explain this please.

They have to work. An education pays off in the future, a job feeds you today. That's what these kids have to dea lwith. Alot of them have to work so they can feed themselves.

And it's not that these kids don't have faith in themselves (though, I geuss you could put it that way). It's that they're unconscious. Sadly, Malcolm X failed in that sense.

You don't get paid for filling out job aplications, just like you don't get paid to sign up for classes for next year. You do however get paid for working once you're hired, and you would get paid for doing school work once the new year starts.

 

[Kacey]

They have to work. An education pays off in the future, a job feeds you today. That's what these kids have to dea lwith. Alot of them have to work so they can feed themselves.

And it's not that these kids don't have faith in themselves (though, I geuss you could put it that way). It's that they're unconscious. Sadly, Malcolm X failed in that sense.

You don't get paid for filling out job aplications, just like you don't get paid to sign up for classes for next year. You do however get paid for working once you're hired, and you would get paid for doing school work once the new year starts.

No, you don't get paid for filling out job applications... but you also don't get paid for a job you can't get because someone else applying for the same job has a diploma, and you don't. There are plenty of programs that will help these kids feed themselves, starting with the schools (school lunches may not be great, but they're available free to anyone with demonstrated financial need) - it's the other goodies that come with having cash that they aren't getting.

There are so many kids looking for jobs around Denver that if you're not in school (as confirmed by the school, not the student) and you don't have a diploma - you don't have a job, either. Even the fast food joints can pick and choose who they want to hire, because the hiring pool is that big - so around here, the kids you're talking about wouldn't have a job, because they aren't in school and haven't graduated... and if you aren't in school, you can't get that crappy, but free, school lunch, either - which, for many of my middle school students, is the only meal they get all day, unless they come early and get the free breakfast, too, which is why so many of them show up early to a place they profess to dislike intensely (school, I mean).

And an amazing number of kids who have iPods, and PSPs, and $300 shoes, and whatever other status symbols you choose qualify for free lunches, and don't have school supplies because their parents "can't afford them"... but when the school provides them with supplies, they "leave them somewhere" - they never lose the shoes, or the electronics, but the school supplies? All the time... because school is not important; it's a place to hang out with their friends until they can do something else instead.

When you are in school, your job is to learn. That's the payoff - the knowledge and skills that you need to be successful in the real world. By the time you get to high school, you shouldn't need to be "paid" for your participation. If students - and their parents - haven't instilled a work ethic in them that keeps them working by that time, chances are they won't keep that job very long, either. And they'll never get a better one.

Yes, it's hard to say "I'm broke now", knowing you could get a job and not be broke just by skipping school - and a lot of kids do that. And a lot of kids don't. Instead of making excuses for the ones that don't go to school, you need to be watching the kids that do, and helping the ones that don't change. As long as people make excuses for them, it will be okay for them to do what they're doing. I'm not saying don't understand their circumstances - but don't condone their choices, either; that just makes it easier for the cycle to continue, instead of helping it to change. It is, apparently, socially acceptable where you live to drop out of school and work in a fast food joint - is that really the way you think it should be?

Also, to go back to the article - this is a fake economy they're talking about. It's play money, not legal tender; it's only good for items at the school store. From the quote MJS originally posted - check the bolded sentence:

They received paychecks for behaving well, doing their homework or making academic gains. The money is pretend. But it can be used at the store for genuine items such as pens capped with fluffy feathers, pencil cases shaped like animals and colorful erasers.
Schools, under pressure to boost student achievement, are offering incentives — field trips and cash, for example — to motivate students.

Yes, some schools are offering cash - but every program I've seen that does that, the amounts are minimal; certainly not enough to survive on, and therefore, not enough to keep the students you talk about in school, if they really are working because they must work to survive.

 

[MJS]

They have to work. An education pays off in the future, a job feeds you today. That's what these kids have to dea lwith. Alot of them have to work so they can feed themselves.

Unless these kids quit school, the most they're going to be working is PT hours. They're also most likely going to be working min. wage jobs. Without at the least, a HS diploma, the most they're probably ever going to get is a min. wage job. If they want to better themselves, getting an education needs to take the front seat, otherwise, they're never going to get anywhere.

And it's not that these kids don't have faith in themselves (though, I geuss you could put it that way). It's that they're unconscious. Sadly, Malcolm X failed in that sense.

Well off or not well off...still doesnt mean that if they're not as well off as someone else, that they can't put forth effort and do good in school.

You don't get paid for filling out job aplications, just like you don't get paid to sign up for classes for next year. You do however get paid for working once you're hired, and you would get paid for doing school work once the new year starts.

And this all goes back to providing a service. Kids in school are not providing a service. If they are, please show me what it is. There're millions of schools out there. Are you telling me that every one of those offer this type of program? I doubt it. Therefore, its simple....do good, graduate, maybe go to college and then get a job. Don't do well, don't graduate, stay back a few times, quit...and then what?

Where would you rather work. BK, making min. wage, if that, or at least getting a HS diploma and getting a good job?