rachel
Purple Belt
Is your school insured in case someone gets hurt? at my school we have to sign a waiver before we begin training stating that we accept full responsibility if we get hurt in class and we won't hold the school liable.
school insured?
- Thread starter rachel
- Start date
R
RCastillo
Guest
I had to be insured before I could start at the YWCA. Nowadays, you never know. You have to be ready!:asian:
K
KenpoGirl
Guest
Speaking as someone in the insurance industry.....
Sadly Waivers are hardly worth the paper they are written on. If someone wants to sue, a waiver isn't going to do much to stop them.
They were mostly created, for people with little or no legal knowledge to put the "idea" in the clients heads that if they injure themselves it's their own fault. If they went to a lawyer they'd hear a whole different story.
Example; I believe it is regular practice for a patient to sign a waiver of some sort before they go in for surgery. Yet Doctors are being sued for malpractise all over the place. (Of course I could be completely wrong on all this too)
Owners have to be very careful to cover there butts, ie make sure their equipment is in good working order, including the building itself. Make sure the students are sufficiently trained before attempting any risky type moves and that they are supervised by quailified instructors etc. etc. Hard to do I know but its the way to keep out of the courts.
Most owners have to work on Good Faith that their clients will not sue them for some minor events. And if something major happens their insurance will protect them.
Just my 0.04 cents.
Dot
Sadly Waivers are hardly worth the paper they are written on. If someone wants to sue, a waiver isn't going to do much to stop them.
They were mostly created, for people with little or no legal knowledge to put the "idea" in the clients heads that if they injure themselves it's their own fault. If they went to a lawyer they'd hear a whole different story.
Example; I believe it is regular practice for a patient to sign a waiver of some sort before they go in for surgery. Yet Doctors are being sued for malpractise all over the place. (Of course I could be completely wrong on all this too)
Owners have to be very careful to cover there butts, ie make sure their equipment is in good working order, including the building itself. Make sure the students are sufficiently trained before attempting any risky type moves and that they are supervised by quailified instructors etc. etc. Hard to do I know but its the way to keep out of the courts.
Most owners have to work on Good Faith that their clients will not sue them for some minor events. And if something major happens their insurance will protect them.
Just my 0.04 cents.
Dot
D_Brady
Purple Belt
I have a 4 page waiver that everyone must sign, if anything were to happen it won't save you like some think but it shows your responsible enough to let them now of the risks involved in training. I still have insurance, it's not as expensive as some think you can get a $1,000,000 policy for 700. a year. Mosy people spend more than that eating out.
W
webmasterc
Guest
KenpoGirl is right, waivers are not very effective. An individual, by law, can not waive their legal right to sue for negligence. However, it is wise for a school, or any commerical entity with student exposures for that matter, to obtain them. They can be helpful to a school's defense if a lawsuit is ever filed as it shows that the student at least understood the risks they were assuming. Even if a school is insured, it is unlikely they are protected for injuries to students while training, unless they have purchased some sort of accident policy or what is called a "specialty market" liability policy. Especially for minor injuries, it's highly unlikely a school could ever be found legally liable for an injury to a student in most jurisdictions since the "common man" would perceive an injury received during martial arts training to be an assumed risk.
All that said, if there was ever a serious injury in a school (paralysis, blindness, death), you can throw all of that out the window. Trial attorneys would be flocking to the plantiff (student) to go after the school in a lawsuit. I've worked in Commercial Insurance for many years now and have seen it happen....
All that said, if there was ever a serious injury in a school (paralysis, blindness, death), you can throw all of that out the window. Trial attorneys would be flocking to the plantiff (student) to go after the school in a lawsuit. I've worked in Commercial Insurance for many years now and have seen it happen....
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
I understand there are good reasons to sue and there are the people who abuse and take advantage of the legal system. OK, I understand that this is the way things are here, but whatever happened to being reponsible for your own actions? Take for example someone walks across a wet floor that is well marked and someone slips, falls and hurts themselves. Does this entitle them to sue? Some say yes, but my mindset is that I walked across the floor that I knew was (wet=slippery=chance to fall=chance to get hurt).
How about that McDonald's Coffee person... a person splilled a hot drink on themself and got burnt. Does that mean if it had been marked "CAUTION:CONTENTS ARE HOT" or if it was a cold soda they wouldn't have spilt it? No, it still would have spilled on them! Not because it was hot. Not because it was a defective cup. But because they were a little clumsy at the time. So why sue? How about the idea of "I was a little careless and it spilled on me." The fast food company had nothing to do with their dexterity. Take responsibility for your actions!
If you take martial arts there is a chance of injury. You are learning skills of what was/is a fighting art. Responsibility is part of being a martial artist. Unless someone purposely causes harm to you or a gross neglect causes a serious injury, in my opinion you shouldn't sue. But for some reason people do.
:soapbox:
Whoa! I feel better now.
Take care
How about that McDonald's Coffee person... a person splilled a hot drink on themself and got burnt. Does that mean if it had been marked "CAUTION:CONTENTS ARE HOT" or if it was a cold soda they wouldn't have spilt it? No, it still would have spilled on them! Not because it was hot. Not because it was a defective cup. But because they were a little clumsy at the time. So why sue? How about the idea of "I was a little careless and it spilled on me." The fast food company had nothing to do with their dexterity. Take responsibility for your actions!
If you take martial arts there is a chance of injury. You are learning skills of what was/is a fighting art. Responsibility is part of being a martial artist. Unless someone purposely causes harm to you or a gross neglect causes a serious injury, in my opinion you shouldn't sue. But for some reason people do.
:soapbox:
Whoa! I feel better now.
Take care
W
webmasterc
Guest
You are preaching to the choir my friend. Unfortunately, not everyone, especially in the good 'ol litigious USA, thinks they way you and I do....
Cheers
Cheers
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
Unfortunately :shrug:
It's always good to hear that I'm not the only one. :asian:
Take care
E
Elfan
Guest
You can't waive your right to sue, but Dot is right that psychologically it probably cuts down on the number of suits by making people think they can't sue.
I have had to sign waivers at several schools I have traveled to for seminars such even though I was only there for a few days.
I have had to sign waivers at several schools I have traveled to for seminars such even though I was only there for a few days.
T
TkdWarrior
Guest
that's the only contract u make at my school
-TkdWarrior-
G
GouRonin
Guest
If you look a bit more carefully into the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit you'd have found that McDonald's was aware they had an issue with the temperature of their coffee as they had been recieving many complaints from many stores regarding problems when people did spill. They decided rather than to change their policy on the temperature of the coffee, (Which they keep at that temperature for purposes of maintaining the pot as long as possible for usability thereby achieving maximum profit) that they would deal with complaints by regular customer service such as refunds, paying dry cleaning, or free coupons. This continued for several YEARS. The reason that they were given huge punative damages because this was a KNOWN problem which they inadequately dealt with to maximize profits. The lady who originally sued wanted much less until her lawyers discovered this pattern in irresponsible behavior on the corporation's part.
Oh, and Dot...sometimes you SHOULD sue to make things right for not only yourself, but for others after you.
W
webmasterc
Guest
GouRonin makes some excellent points. In some situations, lawsuits are necessary to bring defendants guilty of gross, egregious neligence to justice. I don't think anyone on this board is arguing that individuals shouldn't maintain what is, after all, their constitutional right. To be sure, in some cases, it is necessary and proper to sue. Unfortunately, in the USA, the propensity to "sue and negotiate later," has gotten totally out of control. Paticularly in the medical field, practitioners are either abandoning their profession or not entering it to begin with due to the unavailability or cost of malpractice insurance. Why? Because if anything goes wrong, patients are automtically convinced to sue by trial attorneys. This is a National crisis we have in America. Any efforts toward what I consider to be a rational approach to reform, not eliminate, tort law is always opposed by the trial bar.
Regarding the McDonald's case, GouRonin is also correct in that there was a lot more to it. This was also an elderly woman who received 3rd degree burns from scalding hot coffee. While I still question the need to sue over this, I do understand the argument if a "pattern of misconduct" was found. However, I totally question the real motivation here. How much of what was collected from McDonalds, do you suppose, actually went to that woman, and how much was pocketed by the attorneys representing her?
Cheers.
Regarding the McDonald's case, GouRonin is also correct in that there was a lot more to it. This was also an elderly woman who received 3rd degree burns from scalding hot coffee. While I still question the need to sue over this, I do understand the argument if a "pattern of misconduct" was found. However, I totally question the real motivation here. How much of what was collected from McDonalds, do you suppose, actually went to that woman, and how much was pocketed by the attorneys representing her?
Cheers.
K
KenpoGirl
Guest
Figured you pipe in on that.
Yes Gou, you are right, but its too late to change that now and I will have to live with the consequences.
J
Jill666
Guest
I tend to be a person who believes in personal responsibility. If someone is stupid enough to get themselves hurt by misusing a toy made for a four-year-old, well that seems like Darwinism in action. I know that's a gross exaggeration, but I'm sure you get the point.
However, responsibility does extend to larger arenas, like corporations. The good-faith issue is a huge factor when OSHA surveys a job site after an accident. Was the equipment unsafe, was that known & covered up, or did the responsible parties try to make things right?
My husband was walking home from a subway stop, crossing the street at a crosswalk, when a driver came out of nowhere, hit him, & left the scene. He was on the car hood, then the driver braked, throwng him to the ground, and sped off. Fortunately, he wasn't seriously hurt, and rolled (as taught in Aikido) on the pavement, lessening impact injury. That driver has just been convicted in criminal court, so he chose not to sue in civil court. If that driver had stopped, made sure he was all right, and apologised, that would have been the end of it.
I have signed a waiver, and as long as I train, I accept the risks. Accidents happen also, when training with others who are not expert. As long as there is good faith to keep everyone safe from harm, that is plenty. If there is someone in class who seems psycho, well inform the instructor, then leave if nothing is done about it. If eqipment is poorly kept up, inform the instructor, then don't use it. Jeez- when did we as a nation stop working for what we want, and taking setbacks as a challenge to rise above?
One more thing though- how many time have we sparred with someone who is more interested in showing their strenth than picking openings, developing skill, and generally acts like a d*ck? There is a culture in the dojo to either tough it out and keep quiet, or respond by trying to out-do the opponent by inflicting injury to teach them a lession. Personally I had one such instance, and stepped back and requested to switch partners. Later I told the offender why. But that might be easier for a woman to do than a man, in term of ego getting in the way. I have seen guys tough it out until someone gets hurt.
Just a thought, and I certainly don't want to start a war of the sexes here (it's boring and useless). But a waiver seems more like a tool than a binding document for reasons already stated here.
However, responsibility does extend to larger arenas, like corporations. The good-faith issue is a huge factor when OSHA surveys a job site after an accident. Was the equipment unsafe, was that known & covered up, or did the responsible parties try to make things right?
My husband was walking home from a subway stop, crossing the street at a crosswalk, when a driver came out of nowhere, hit him, & left the scene. He was on the car hood, then the driver braked, throwng him to the ground, and sped off. Fortunately, he wasn't seriously hurt, and rolled (as taught in Aikido) on the pavement, lessening impact injury. That driver has just been convicted in criminal court, so he chose not to sue in civil court. If that driver had stopped, made sure he was all right, and apologised, that would have been the end of it.
I have signed a waiver, and as long as I train, I accept the risks. Accidents happen also, when training with others who are not expert. As long as there is good faith to keep everyone safe from harm, that is plenty. If there is someone in class who seems psycho, well inform the instructor, then leave if nothing is done about it. If eqipment is poorly kept up, inform the instructor, then don't use it. Jeez- when did we as a nation stop working for what we want, and taking setbacks as a challenge to rise above?
One more thing though- how many time have we sparred with someone who is more interested in showing their strenth than picking openings, developing skill, and generally acts like a d*ck? There is a culture in the dojo to either tough it out and keep quiet, or respond by trying to out-do the opponent by inflicting injury to teach them a lession. Personally I had one such instance, and stepped back and requested to switch partners. Later I told the offender why. But that might be easier for a woman to do than a man, in term of ego getting in the way. I have seen guys tough it out until someone gets hurt.
Just a thought, and I certainly don't want to start a war of the sexes here (it's boring and useless). But a waiver seems more like a tool than a binding document for reasons already stated here.
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
Gou you do make good points and that it isn't so cut and dry of an issue, but what I am getting at that we all make choices in our lives and each choice has a consequence. That will either be good or bad. The thing being these are our choices and not someone forcing us to make them, therefore we are responcible for their outcome. It's so easy just to blame someone else than to accept the fact we sometimes don't make the best choices. I used McDonald's coffee incident as a general state of being with people in the US now-a-days.
I should have been more clear. Ooops
Take care.
I should have been more clear. Ooops
Take care.
Chris from CT
Purple Belt
I hope he's doing well now.
Take care.
