Safety VS. Effectiveness

[Danjo]

Here's a question: How would you balance safety/defense with effectiveness/offense in training and fighting? We can see that in nearly every situation that the people trained to do dangerous jobs are given training that is designed to maximize their safety, but also allow them to be effective. Whether it's firemen, policemen, soldiers, Bouncers/doormen, concert security, rescue workers etc., one still has to get out there and do the job which will naturally entail a certain amount of risk to one's life and limbs.

How about the martial arts? How much should one be trained to defend oneself and how much should one be trained to have that fighting spirit? Clearly the safest thing a fireman could do is to not go into a burning building, but then no one would ever get rescued either. What if a fighting technique was effective for offense and finishing a fight quickly, but left one more open to getting hit oneself? There's an old saying that tells us that "The best defense is a good offense." and at times this is true.

 

[still learning]

Hello, On the street fighting is total chaos,anything goes,no rules,anyone around you can/may jump in/or hit you with a stick/weapons. NO time outs or judges.

NON-Stop action. All kinds of punches/kicks and hitting will be none stop.

Can you handle all this? Does your style train for this?

What about the adrenline response? The fear factors? Unknowns in your mind? The Place of attack? are you ready for this?

Key: Is "I am not going to be a victim...I will fight back..like there is no tomorrow.because there maybe NO-tomorrow. I know I am going to get hurt...ACCEPT THIS!!!! FIGHT BACK...FIGHT BACK..FIGHT BACK...

If you can escape...do this at every possible chance.......Aloha

 

[monkey]

In Oakland durring the time were the turniment had no pads.We use pads & that shut down the blows effectiveness on most external hits.How ever Bruce & James had the gift of internal hit ower.The pads did didley squat.It hurt like you need to go to intensive care.Now how dose one train safe internal.I use mine as regular & the attacker -dose his thing let power but realisum is still adhear to.So to explain for those who dont do internal.Walk up to a wall & touch your nose to it.It did not hurt if you did it soft.Now the wall did nothig right.What if on impact of that soft touch the wall reverbed an earth quake.Now your hurt.Yet the wll did nothing.Still if you run full speed & contact youll probley break your nose at the least.No run full & earth quake the wall.This is internal.

 

[HKphooey]

I think it is good to enstill that fighting spirit in teaching. I have seen many students execute the material as close to perfect (as far as movements are concerned), but they lack that "look in their eyes". There needs to be a happy medium, but that increased fighting spirit will make the student confident and others will think twice before confronting them. I think just teaching somone how to put on a game face and a loud "kai" go a long way.

 

[Dark]

There is no happy medium, if your training for the worst case senario and are a yuppy accountant, you are less likely to use it then say a security guard, or especially a biker.

The happy medium is defined by the risk factor of your life... If you are a low risk person then your training requirements are less then say a high risk individual. For me a good old fashion bareknuckled boxing match would do me fine

 

[GuruJim1]

This is a good question. I have trained Military Personel, Correctional Officers, Police Officers, Accountants, Computer Techs. I use a lot of kicking shields, Focusing Gloves, and other striking aids. I have seen as it was said before the High Risk Professions worked hard because they know their life will be on the line. Where as the Low Risk Professions only saw this a hobby and wouldn't put everything into it. Its all about your need for what your doing. I try to get everyone of my students prepare for combat as I would the Soldier, but it's all about their heart for battle. I can only teach them how to defend themself. I only wish I could teach them the need for training. I keep telling them that if they don't take this serious, they wont have the confindence to do the techniques and everything I'm teaching them will be worthless. I try to make their sparring class as real as I can within reason. My student will spar standing up and if they clinch or one is taken down then the match is a ground fight either Harimau or grappling. However, again I get students that will leave their sparring gear at home and say, "I forgot it so I can't spar". This happens a lot. As I said I can only teach how to fight, not how to have the heart for battle.

 

[Dark]

James I may have something for you. I did a very short book on this type of MA training. I need to get some people to review it, I can e-mail you the main text, you up for it?

 

[GuruJim1]

Yup, I'm up for it.

 

[pstarr]

I think that if we try to defend ourselves and utilize certain "rules" - trying not to hurt the other person too awfully bad - we place ourselves at a terrible disadvantage. The scumbag isn't going to fight by rules.

I use a pretty basic rule of thumb - if I believe that the bad guy intends to take my life, I'll apply deadly force as best I can. If he doesn't appear to be interested in taking my life; if he just wants to knock me down or whatever, then I won't apply deadly force...but he's going to get hurt real, real bad.

As a former law enforcement officer, we used to joke that we had to carry two sets of cuffs - one for the scumbag and one for us.

Now that I'm a civilian, I don't have to worry so much about that anymore. :whip:

 

[MJS]

Here's a question: How would you balance safety/defense with effectiveness/offense in training and fighting? We can see that in nearly every situation that the people trained to do dangerous jobs are given training that is designed to maximize their safety, but also allow them to be effective. Whether it's firemen, policemen, soldiers, Bouncers/doormen, concert security, rescue workers etc., one still has to get out there and do the job which will naturally entail a certain amount of risk to one's life and limbs.

How about the martial arts? How much should one be trained to defend oneself and how much should one be trained to have that fighting spirit? Clearly the safest thing a fireman could do is to not go into a burning building, but then no one would ever get rescued either. What if a fighting technique was effective for offense and finishing a fight quickly, but left one more open to getting hit oneself? There's an old saying that tells us that "The best defense is a good offense." and at times this is true.

Many Police and Fire Depts., as well as the Military, use scenario drills to simulate what they may face in the real world. These drills are designed to be as real as possible, so as to put them in the proper mindset. This is very important and can also be applied to the martial arts. Using the proper gear and making the training as real as possible within reason. GuruJim made a great post regarding this type of training.

Mike

 

[Dark]

Being in the Army myself, I have to disagree. Our training is to weak compared to older martial arts training and few people in the military are qualified to teach realistic combatives.

 

[MJS]

Being in the Army myself, I have to disagree. Our training is to weak compared to older martial arts training and few people in the military are qualified to teach realistic combatives.

So there's no simulation, drills, etc. to prepare the people in the military? I'm not in the service, but I find it odd that there would be no drills. The police depts. use a simulator where a scene is played out for the officer. They are faced with scenarios that they may face on the job. Its testing their judgement, shooting skills, etc.

Mike

 

[Dark]

No we do force on force type training, but our combatives needs work. With a weapon (rifle) you get plenty of sims, by as a weapon (combatives) it's hugely over looked. There are however several members who train in many different MAs and pass those onto other soldiers. But the US Army does not have a realistic hand-to-hand course anymore.

The Marines have a standardized hand-to-hand system, but there is no universal training for the military. The US army combatives program is a mix of BJJ, Muay Thai, Karate and Escema (sp?). The problem is only the BJJ ground fighting get covered, and even whrn the other stuff is taught there is a heavy focus on the BJJ and UFC type training.
Which as I pointed out in another thread, sport isn't the street and the battle field is allot worse. There to much of a focus on restraint as opposed to killing the enemy for my tastes.

 

[MJS]

No we do force on force type training, but our combatives needs work. With a weapon (rifle) you get plenty of sims, by as a weapon (combatives) it's hugely over looked. There are however several members who train in many different MAs and pass those onto other soldiers. But the US Army does not have a realistic hand-to-hand course anymore.

The Marines have a standardized hand-to-hand system, but there is no universal training for the military. The US army combatives program is a mix of BJJ, Muay Thai, Karate and Escema (sp?). The problem is only the BJJ ground fighting get covered, and even whrn the other stuff is taught there is a heavy focus on the BJJ and UFC type training.
Which as I pointed out in another thread, sport isn't the street and the battle field is allot worse. There to much of a focus on restraint as opposed to killing the enemy for my tastes.

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, after reading this, I can see what you're talking about. IMHO, it would be good to include things that are going to be more geared to what you're most likely to face. Submissions are fine, but a line needs to be drawn as far as how much focus is put on that. Personally, I can't imagine grappling being too effective if someone is carrying a large amount of gear.

Mike

 

[Dark]

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, after reading this, I can see what you're talking about. IMHO, it would be good to include things that are going to be more geared to what you're most likely to face. Submissions are fine, but a line needs to be drawn as far as how much focus is put on that. Personally, I can't imagine grappling being too effective if someone is carrying a large amount of gear.

Mike

Ironically I became my unit unoffical hand to hand instructor with a mix of american jujitsu, muay thai and karate. I was bored and need a project, so I invent RCS (reflexive combatives systems) haven't marketed it or anything. I was just bored and needed a project. I ended up teaching it to few guys in my old unit and in about two minutes I had two boxers, a bunch of TKD guys and even a few submission junkies in love with my little project. Funny thing was I used same arguement about gear and even demonstrated it to them.
The massive difference was I taught principles and not just techniques, and built the core around anatomy and biology basics.