Ryan Carson - Stabbing Victim - Running Didn't Work.-Awareness

[JowGaWolf]

I won't post the video here but I dthink is a perspective that we all need to have.

Running didn’t save him. What happened. Short story -couple comes across any angry man tearing things up. Ryan confronts angry man. Angry man stops destroying things and redirects anger to Ryan. Ryan keeps distance for the most part. When attackers gets to close Ryan turns to run and falls over small bench. Angry man becomes more agressive when he sees him on the ground.

This made me think about being aware of the path to escape. Don't lose sight of it.

It also made me think of my self defense classes on how to use objects as a way to keep attackers or potential dangers away. This requires you to actively scan for things like the bench.


Being on the ground makes animals and people more aggressive. The attacker/killer had the advantage with a knife but didn't boost the aggression to max until thr victim hit the ground.

What would I do?
The most I would have done would be to ask the agressive if he was was OK. That's the description part. If the anger is directed at me. I would try to Angry guy to redirect his anger back on the objects he was tearing up. Even if I have to encourage him. I wouldn't approach him. I've seen angry people before and I tend to let them have space. Most people can hear me from 10 feet away.

I don't try to stop them. Instead I try to redirect the anger or redirect their thoughts to something other than me. These are the type of things that worked in the past. If the person is tired of people telling him what to do then I don't want to make myself a target by being one more person telling him what to do.

Angry people aren't always rational so as long as they have the anger flared up we should take extra care.

A tragic. But hopefully it will be a teaching scenario that will prevent more loss of life.

 

[Mider]

i wouldn’t have gotten involved, knives are iffy even for the most skilled.

having said that it is possible and some teachers have posted it such as Tim Kennedy.

I very much dislike when people say just run, why couldn’t the other guy just chase you? Or what if you’re in an elevator or with a loved one…or out of shape or older

 

[Dirty Dog]

I won't post the video here but I dthink is a perspective that we all need to have.

Horrible stuation.

Running didn’t save him. What happened. Short story -couple comes across any angry man tearing things up. Ryan confronts angry man.

Why? Angry man is clearly violent, hence trashing things. Don't confront angry people unless you have some obligation to do so. Unless Ryan had some duty to intervene, a better option is probably to call 911. People who are trained to deal with angry man and who will have numbers and equipment on their side. One unarmed person facing angry armed man is not likely to end well.

Angry man stops destroying things and redirects anger to Ryan. Ryan keeps distance for the most part. When attackers gets to close Ryan turns to run

Turning your back on angry armed man is another bad idea, in my opinion.

and falls over small bench. Angry man becomes more agressive when he sees him on the ground.

No surprise there.

This made me think about being aware of the path to escape. Don't lose sight of it.

And don't get OFF of it.

It also made me think of my self defense classes on how to use objects as a way to keep attackers or potential dangers away. This requires you to actively scan for things like the bench.

And keep it between you and angry armed man.

What would I do?
The most I would have done would be to ask the agressive if he was was OK.

Maybe. From a big distance. More likely I'd call 911 instead.

That's the description part. If the anger is directed at me. I would try to Angry guy to redirect his anger back on the objects he was tearing up. Even if I have to encourage him. I wouldn't approach him. I've seen angry people before and I tend to let them have space. Most people can hear me from 10 feet away.

Again, unless you have some obligation to intervene, that's too close. You can be heard from 20 feet away. Or 30. And that distance makes them less likely to redirect their attack, as well as giving you more options.

Angry people aren't always rational so as long as they have the anger flared up we should take extra care.

I would go so far as to say that the initial description of angry armed man is CLEARLY not rational.

A tragic. But hopefully it will be a teaching scenario that will prevent more loss of life.

Hopefully.

 

[skribs]

I think most of the people who say "just do X" are either:

• Armchair quarterbacks
• Elite at whatever X is

Someone who says "just run" is most likely someone horrible at running who would probably get chased down in 10 seconds (or die of a heart attack from 11 seconds of running), or someone who can outrun most people. They're not kids, or asthmatic, or short, or handicapped, or old.

 

[Dirty Dog]

i wouldn’t have gotten involved,

I'd get involved, to the extent of calling 911 and trying to make sure nobody approached angry armed man. Anything beyond that would require a really really good reason.

I very much dislike when people say just run, why couldn’t the other guy just chase you?

Sounds like they did.

Or what if you’re in an elevator or with a loved one…or out of shape or older

I'm 62. I've been on various forms of chemo and radiation for 13 years. My feet are mostly numb secondary to neuropathies caused by Cisplatin. I'm alive (well beyond expectations) but it's absolutely affected my strength and conditioning. I'm not running very far or very fast.
Frankly, when he attacked, I'd likely have shot him. But that would have required me to do a lot of other unlikely things first.

 

[JowGaWolf]

i wouldn’t have gotten involved, knives are iffy even for the most skilled.

having said that it is possible and some teachers have posted it such as Tim Kennedy.

I very much dislike when people say just run, why couldn’t the other guy just chase you? Or what if you’re in an elevator or with a loved one…or out of shape or older

He didn't know he had a knife until it was too late. I've gotten involved with angry people before but I always kept a good distance because I always wonder if they have a weapon. But in the past it was angry people trying to hurt another person and not an angry person destroying property.

First rule of retail "things can be replaced." When I watched the video of the incident it reminded me of a self defense video. STEP 1thru Step..... with the exception of willingly getting within touching range. It really made me wonder if those steps were going on in his mind. It read like a script. Put your hand out to keep distance. If that doesn't work then run. The woman was scared stiff. She didn't try to leave the scene. I wonder if she left the scene would the guy she was with leave with her.. Sometimes that "Hero Cape" gets us in trouble. But yep. Lots of self defense stuff gone bad.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'd get involved, to the extent of calling 911 and trying to make sure nobody approached angry armed man. Anything beyond that would require a really really good reason.

If I remember the news report. I think angry guy was destroying scooters. But I need to check what type. I don't know if it was stand up electric scooters or the bigger seated gass ones.

Any thing I had to say could have been heard at 20 feet. I think the verbal approach was "WTF are you doing" Not the verbal start that I use but that's just me and you at this point. I do know I wouldn't put much effort for preventing the destruction of scooters.

 

[JowGaWolf]

By the way my shock is about a person trying to do good. It's about seeing something unfold that looked like alot of generic self defense class and tactics. But applied with bad timing. It makes me think things are being missed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It makes me think things are being missed.

The missing part is the weapon training. There is a good reason that open hand training is only the beginner level training (sport). Weapon training should be the advanced level training (combat).

- Short weapon has no match against long weapon.
- Cold weapon has no match against hot weapon.

If you have this on your waist 24/7 (I believe it's legal), when dealing with a knife, you will have something to depend on.

 

[Dirty Dog]

- Short weapon has no match against long weapon.
- Cold weapon has no match against hot weapon.

Both of these statements are incorrect. A dagger wins vs a spear at the correct range.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I gave it some more thought what I felt that I was seeing. A person who want to confront a wrong doer with self defense skills. To stop the guy that's doing wrong and then use my self defense skills to get out of danger. The skill yo confront someone is not the same skill for self defense.

That's what's missing because we never teach how to confront other while minimizing risk. I'm not saying we should teach that but maybe make clear that these skills are for self defense and not for "Being the hero"

I think about Wangs bus scenario and the skills to protect are different than the skills to defend. Offense is not the same as defense. Blocking is not the same as punching.

No one teaches how to approach a angry person destroying property. no teaches how to come to the aid of another. We teach the defense but not the offense. That's what it seems to me. That this wasn't understood when approaching the guy. My approach to helping others against danger is has always been different than my self defense approach.

Did the victim get into a self defense scenario? Yes he did. But only after the offense failed. I will make that really clear that self defense is not an offensive approach. Offense is not defense. The couse is called self defense and not Self Offense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

we never teach how to confront other while minimizing risk.

If I have choice between 2 teachers that

1. one teaches self-defense, and
2. the other teaches combat (how to fight).

I will go to 2. The reason is simple. My self-defense teacher may not be able to teach me how to throw a knife. I always want to learn that since I was a little kid. There was a period of time that I carried 3 throwing knifes all the time, 2 for throwing, 1 for close combat (One local gang member said he wanted to kill me next time we met, and I knew that I had to deal with more than 1 person).

 

[drop bear]

In a fight you roll the dice. There is no way around that.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In a fight you roll the dice. There is no way around that.

In this particular case, it doesn't seem like there was ever any reason for there to be a fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Maybe. From a big distance. More likely I'd call 911 instead

I finally got to see the beginning of the clip. Yeah that would have been a 911 call and a walk in the opposite direction. I didn't realize the guy originally walked by them and did nothing. And that they started to walk towards him when the Angry guy started to break stuff. The part that I originally saw look like the interaction was much closer but he went into rhe Angry guy's space. That's definitely an off ramp. While he's busy breaking stuff increase distance. Yep 911 call definitely.

Not your "bar distance" where you may accidentally walk up on an angry person. And the interaction happened during the explosive part where he could hold it in. That is literally the definition of no control.

I don't think the police would have closed distance that soon. They would have let him blown some more steam and burn some more energy while back up was on the way.

They had a good 20 feet on the approach and a lot of road for a "GPS reroute"

After watching the video on a monitor, the Analysis Time spent to determine if it was safe to approach was unnecessarily too short. If time is on your side then use it. Things may have turned out much differently if 10 seconds was used to back up to the bench vs walking forward.

Angry guy is going to prison though. He said it then did it. Lives didn't get better that night.

 

[Holmejr]

Yes, run in the opposite direction!
Naive activist thinking he’s holy enough to calm the storm. Physical self defense is secondary, it’s about common sense, in which he was lacking. He almost got his girlfriend killed. Pompous stupidity.
Concerning the physical self defense aspect of this tragedy. Someone walks up with intent and you say stop, but they don’t stop, you might let loose with a teep that sends them back a couple feet then a barrage of something else. Maybe.

 

[Gyakuto]

This is an interesting take on self-defence and ’running away’.

 

[Brian King]

The young man Ryan did a bunch of stuff correctly, not well, but he tried. He couldn’t run away with his girlfriend with him, so he tried to put himself between his companion and the threat. He tried to deescalate the situation but of course that takes two. He tried to create a barrier/fence with his arms and tried to create space with a push to the threat’s chest. The threat not only closed with Ryan VERY quickly but did so purposely (I think it is unfair in this instance to say that Ryan confronted the young man, I kind of think that Ryan and his companion had become targets/triggers of rage prior to Ryan saying a single word), the threat used loud and coarse language along with intended and obvious violent action which overwhelmed Ryan’s OODA loop causing a flinching and turning away response ( a common event when people are faced with violence or injury and overwhelmed psychologically) That Ryan was unaware of the bench that he and his girlfriend were just sitting on is understandable as people can not only get tunnel vision (focusing on the incoming threat) but can also lose many of the higher brain functions when faced with violence up close and personal. Even if you do everything well, perfectly well, your next breath could be your last.

Ryan, his girlfriend, their families and their friends have learned a harsh lesson. Violence and evil can knock on your door. It honors the lesson if we can also learn from the situation.

The video/situation reinforces some lessons that my wife and I have learned, practiced, and review.

• Live the kind of life that will be remembered positively. I had never heard of this young man (in fact never heard of the stabbing until this thread) but he sounds like he was a caring individual and he did try to protect others and gave his life doing so.
• Learn first aid, learn trauma aid. Have the means to render first aid. Standing and staring does not save lives, applying pressure might.
• To engage a target, you become a target. It might have been better to beat feet across the street or at least put a vehicle between the threat and loved ones. The threat might have followed but as long as there is only one threat, you can play ring around the rosie. With a loved one along it is more difficult, but it might have bought some additional time.
• There is an old bouncers rule about fighting, It doesn’t matter if both combatants are naked and in the middle of a desert, assume all fighters are armed and have friends.
• There is the 7 S rule, and it is best not to ignore it. Doing Stupid things, with Stupid people, at Stupid times, in Stupid places, will get you Stabbed, Shot, and Stomped. This is usually interpreted as to mean stay out of that bar (you know, that one), or hanging with that friend that is mouthy at that bar, and then staying with that friend at that bar until closing. Being on the street in an urban area at 4am while dressed up from the prior night isn’t usually a good choice if one is following the S-rules
• When trying to de-escalate a situation it is better to have a plan B as well. Having a plan B increases the odds of de-escalation working, and surviving when it doesn’t work. Plan B can be apologizing and leaving, or if able, engage in violence.
• Have a line that once it is crossed triggers that knowledge that the fight is now on and it is time to protect your loved ones with extreme and preemptive violence. When in a confrontation and somebody’s hand disappears behind their back, or down towards their ankle, or into a pocket, the go button should be engaged. Doesn’t mean you have to wait for the line to be crossed but once crossed talking is for distraction and calling for help, not for de-escalation. De-escalation can resume once the immediate threat has ended.
• When with loved ones, you should have prearranged planning on what to do during and after violence. For example, my wife knows that if I give her the car keys, there is a good chance that violence might be moments away. She is driving home while I might be going to hospital, jail or dead. She is getting out of the area if together we cannot.
• Try not to overestimate your ability to deal with violent situations by understanding that ‘stuff’ happens and everybody can lose, you can fall, you can get hit, you might be in a suit and feet pinching shoes, you might have to keep someone separate from the violence. Best to familiarize yourself by incorporating training from weakness occasionally. Some examples, training with a rock in one shoe or a small nail or stick pin in the shoe. Training with an arm tied uncomfortably behind you twisting your body. Training with a long stick tied to one leg (getting onto and up from the ground is interesting as is rolling) Sparring one or two people while someone else keeps their hand on your back at all times (simulating a loved one unless you’re lucky and your loved one also trains) My wife and I call it training from the “Oh sh.t moment”
• Avoid weddings and other events that require long hours while dressed up…not really a self defense rule, I just don’t really enjoy weddings and such.

Brian King

 

[mograph]

Crap. So sorry for this Ryan guy's family and community.

Maybe it's just that I'm old, but I would have seen the randomly violent activity, and then turned 180 or crossed the road. Violent dude is occupied with (and probably concentrating on) the scooters, so stay out of his visual field, and especially his personal space. Be part of the background. Call 911 when out of earshot.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The missing part is the weapon training. There is a good reason that open hand training is only the beginner level training (sport). Weapon training should be the advanced level training (combat).

- Short weapon has no match against long weapon.
- Cold weapon has no match against hot weapon.

If you have this on your waist 24/7 (I believe it's legal), when dealing with a knife, you will have something to depend on.

View attachment 30139

A timing chain?