Russians fighting with shovels

[Jared Traveler]

I was in Ukraine in January and I'm going back soon, so I track articles there. This one is perhaps designed to grab headlines more than represent the ground truth. Are they literally fighting with shovels? Possibly, but they are certainly short on artillery and it is interesting how quickly things can deteriorate back to armies going hand to hand. Also how physically and emotionally these new recruits are for this type of warfare.

Ukraine war: Russian reservists fighting with shovels - UK defence ministry

Troops could be engaging in hand-to-hand combat in Ukraine, Britain's defence ministry says.

www.bbc.com

 

[Jared Traveler]

Here is another recent example I'm the in the Himalayas between India and China. This involved some serious loss of life with sticks, clubs and bats. This wasn't a result of running out of ammunition, rather SOPs that "disarmed" both sides in an attempt ironically to prevent violence.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/alarming-new-video-of-chinese-and-indian-soldiers-fighting-on-himalayan-border/news-story/5f01469aa2f8c77d3c2408b71e541e13

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was in Ukraine in January and I'm going back soon, so I track articles there. This one is perhaps designed to grab headlines more than represent the ground truth. Are they literally fighting with shovels? Possibly, but they are certainly short on artillery and it is interesting how quickly things can deteriorate back to armies going hand to hand. Also how physically and emotionally these new recruits are for this type of warfare.

Ukraine war: Russian reservists fighting with shovels - UK defence ministry

Troops could be engaging in hand-to-hand combat in Ukraine, Britain's defence ministry says.

www.bbc.com

I can believe it. I'm pretty sure they still have ammo. They may be conserving it, but I would never get in the mix thinking that my enemy didn't have any ammo. It just seems to be a nasty way to underestimate an enemy who would be willing to lie to you. I still wouldn't want to get hit with that thing though.

Japanese did something similar in WWII. They made use of swords, I heard it was a way to "live as samurai" but in all practicality. It probably conserved ammo for fights against an army with guns and ammo.

This wasn't a result of running out of ammunition, rather SOPs that "disarmed" both sides in an attempt ironically to prevent violence.

They probably should have studied history more. Man didn't always use guns and tanks to wage war or commit violence against each other.

 

[Jinho]

I was in Ukraine in January and I'm going back soon, so I track articles there. This one is perhaps designed to grab headlines more than represent the ground truth. Are they literally fighting with shovels? Possibly, but they are certainly short on artillery and it is interesting how quickly things can deteriorate back to armies going hand to hand. Also how physically and emotionally these new recruits are for this type of warfare.

I think I've read somewhere that Russian military practices fighting with shovel during their training, so it's kinda like secondary hand-to-hand option for them. Pretty sure it goes all the way back to WW1 and WW2, so it's not something unusual for them. Doubt it has anything to do with lack of ammunition though, probably just engaging in trenches, shovel provides better reach compared to knives unless mounted on a rifle bayonet-style.
Also probably part of the reason is russians using mostly rifles and no secondary firearm for close-quarter engagement. hence why they are "forced" to use those.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I think I've read somewhere that Russian military practices fighting with shovel during their training, so it's kinda like secondary hand-to-hand option for them. Pretty sure it goes all the way back to WW1 and WW2, so it's not something unusual for them. Doubt it has anything to do with lack of ammunition though, probably just engaging in trenches, shovel provides better reach compared to knives unless mounted on a rifle bayonet-style.
Also probably part of the reason is russians using mostly rifles and no secondary firearm for close-quarter engagement. hence why they are "forced" to use those.

I would say all of that is correct. However, for clarification, I think regarding the ammo shortage the article is referring to the reduced use of artillery and mortar fire, and more of a reliance on sending troops into the meat grinder. Due to reduced inventory of artillery and mortar rounds.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I think I've read somewhere that Russian military practices fighting with shovel during their training, so it's kinda like secondary hand-to-hand option for them. Pretty sure it goes all the way back to WW1 and WW2, so it's not something unusual for them. Doubt it has anything to do with lack of ammunition though, probably just engaging in trenches, shovel provides better reach compared to knives unless mounted on a rifle bayonet-style.
Also probably part of the reason is russians using mostly rifles and no secondary firearm for close-quarter engagement. hence why they are "forced" to use those.

Also, the reserve troops being conscripted didn't likely get training in using a shovel for hand to hand. Many of them are civilians rushed into military service and not by choice.

 

[Jinho]

Also, the reserve troops being conscripted didn't likely get training in using a shovel for hand to hand. Many of them are civilians rushed into military service and not by choice.

Partly yes, but don't they have mandatory military service or something? I'd assume they get taught some of it during those years(? I actually don't know how much they've gotta serve, but I'd assume 1-2 years). Wasn't first wave of mobilization mostly people who did that, not just every random civilian

 

[Jared Traveler]

Russia targeting civilian areas to forcibly enlist men into Ukraine war

Russian authorities have shown up at centers for the homeless and hostels housing labor migrants to round up men.

www.axios.com

 

[Jinho]

Russia targeting civilian areas to forcibly enlist men into Ukraine war

Russian authorities have shown up at centers for the homeless and hostels housing labor migrants to round up men.

www.axios.com

Okay, honestly didn't expect Russia to be that desparate... Well, that explains a lot of things

 

[Jared Traveler]

They are actually more desperate than that. Healthy armies don't need to do this:

Russia recruiting Afghan special forces who fought with US to fight in Ukraine

Russians want to attract thousands of former elite commandos who fear being returned to Taliban-controlled homeland from Iran

www.theguardian.com

 

[O'Malley]

I think they learnt that from Bulgarians during the Shoveliet Union:

 

[Holmejr]

Thought bubble: I knew I should have concentrated on the FMA!…

Funny, the family of one of my students came by while we were practicing. His daughter plays lacrosse and had her lacrosse stick with her. I showed her a couple defensive and disarm techniques using the lacrosse stick. She caught on pretty fast and was actually more combatively minds than dad. LOL!

 

[Cynik75]

Three are reports from both sides of using shovels and knives on trench warfare, especially during night clashes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Three are reports from both sides of using shovels and knives on trench warfare, especially during night clashes.

I wish I could find that thread where there was a debate on the value of hand to hand combat skills in the military. This thread would be a good contrast.

 

[Jared Traveler]

I think they learnt that from Bulgarians during the Shoveliet Union:

Intimidating stuff