Riddle me this?

[Rich Parsons]

Tactic

Strategy

Technique


Can you have any one the three with out an element of ether one or an element of both?


Please explain

:asian:

 

[dearnis.com]

You can have any of the elements singly; in fact it takes a hell of an instructor and a hell of a student to have all 3 come together. It all depends on what you want and what you seek out.
The average family oriented dojo/dojang will have a ton of techniques; but likely little on strategy or tactics.
Most LEOs I know have decent tactics, but few techniques (which of course undermines tactics...)

I'm not sure most people understand the difference; the abortive attempt to have a strategy and tactics forum here quickly became a technique discussion instead.


And yes, I voted to send Rich to bed.

 

[RCastillo]

freakin' math question, and I refuse to answer. Nice try.

 

[Makalakumu]

What is the difference between tactic and technique? Certain techniques beg the question don't they? For instance, a guy comes at me with a knife and I am empty handed. I put my arm out to deflect the blade and he cuts it. Meanwhile, I kick him in the gut and then roll away. Then I pick up some sand and throw it in his face and drop a side kick on his knee. All of those are techniques...

 

[Marvin]

I voted for Rich to go to bed as well! Should be a long night on Saturday.
I think technique and strategy come from drilling, rolling and mat time.
As far as tactics go, no plan survives first contact! Hopefully one's technique is up to the challenge

"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training" I don't remember who said that but I think it’s a good motto

Marvin

 

[dearnis.com]

As applied here...Strategy is big picture-long term. Things like "how do I structure my life to avoid being a victim" and "how do I stay out of jail." Tactics are the smaller pieces. Techniques are the methods actually employed.
Defensive driving is a tactic in long-term survival. J and K turns are techniques. Panic braking is the lack of technique.
Military application of the terms are slightly different, although personal tactics should include fighting in groups.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
As applied here...Strategy is big picture-long term. Things like "how do I structure my life to avoid being a victim" and "how do I stay out of jail." Tactics are the smaller pieces. Techniques are the methods actually employed.
Defensive driving is a tactic in long-term survival. J and K turns are techniques. Panic braking is the lack of technique.
Military application of the terms are slightly different, although personal tactics should include fighting in groups.

With that being said, couldn't a martial arts style itself be said to be a tactic?

 

[Cruentus]

We've been swapping idea's, and doing a little arguing over in the Modern Arnis forum on how "Tactics" relates to your martial art here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12631

Although....you don't REALLY need to go there, because I think that Chad (dearnis) summed up everything quite well. Good definitions, chad!

My feelings, so far, has been that the technical (techniques, timing, angling, etc.; basically all the gross body movements behind your art) and the concepts behind the techniques make up your "Martial art." Tactics, are basically your short term planning where a lot of environmental considerations come to play (how do you fight on Ice, or if your attacker has a knife and you don't, or if your against 3 people, etc.). Your "strategy" is your long term planning, which applys most to Military people who go on "missions," yet we all use long range planning in our self defense, but for civilians it is usually much simpler. How do I get from point A my car to point B my hotel the safest and most effective way possible would be like a civilian 'strategy'. Someone introduced the idea of "doctrine" recently in the thread also, which is basically your mentality behind what your doing (aggressive, passive, ect).

Anyways, where there is some arguement is that I believe that Your technical and conceptual aspects make up your "Martial Art," and these will be somewhat the same regardless of environment and other considerations (in other words Amer. Kenpo in freezing @$$ Michigan will be somewhat the same as Amer. Kenpo in Florida, taking out instructor considerations and such). Your tactics are a seperate animal then your art, and tactics are independent of "art." In other words a Kenpo, Modern Arnis, and Gung Fu guy can all have the same tactical considerations even though their arts are different. Then, your strategy and doctrine are also each seperate animals, and will vary from person to person as well.

That is my belief, and I believe that my conjecture coincides with modern combat science. Some people over in that forum seem to disagree.

Anyways, Like I said...Chads explaination is much cooler and more concise then mine!

Feel free to read the other thread and post your thoughts and opinions here! Input appreciated.

PAUL

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by dearnis.com
As applied here...Strategy is big picture-long term. Things like "how do I structure my life to avoid being a victim" and "how do I stay out of jail." Tactics are the smaller pieces. Techniques are the methods actually employed.
Defensive driving is a tactic in long-term survival. J and K turns are techniques. Panic braking is the lack of technique.
Military application of the terms are slightly different, although personal tactics should include fighting in groups.

Strategy - Guide Lines to follow

Tactics - Plans (* And yes no plans survives contact with the enemy, which is why back up lans and strategy come into play *)

Techniques - things executed to accomplish the strategy or tactics.



No this may sound arrogant, so please be patient.

I have been in fights for as long as I can remember. One bully or another, throgh clicks through bouncing and security to today. IN the last few years there have been a lot less. Yet, maybe because I have been involved for so long I do not realize what some people might be missing.

Case in point, I try to avoid bad parts of town. If I Cannot I drive the speed of traffic and stay calm or wave and nod when they get upset. Strategy

Now if there is a problem I have a plan, can I drive my car around them, did I leave myself enough room to back up or pull forward or drive over the side walk or ditch to get away.

If not able to get away, can I get out of the vehicle? I have my routes of movement and plans always being updated. Tactics of a sort.

In the process I am referencing techniques to and deciding on what I believe to be the best option and executing the technique. In reality I am constantly updating the tactical options with my immediate list of tactics.

Now here is where I errored. I assumed everyone could do this. Yet, with the comments from those in the Military or ex-military, and or LEO agencies, they seem to make it out like Tactics and or strategy is somethign that people do not have. They also give me the impression that you can only learn these from some form of LEO agency or Military branch. This may not be theri intent, it is their impact of how they are presenting themelsves and their data and comments.

Yes, there is a very fine line between paranoia and being prepared. I can go into a place and ave my back to a crowd, when I ahve firend I trust around me, as well as I know the feel of the place. Yet, in new places I am always looking around, moving and accessing. To the point that many of the security of places and bouncers ask me why I am not wearing the uniform . They assume I am new for the night or something.

So, if natural ability or enviroment has not put someone into a position to learn or know strategy and tactics, then how does the average person learn it? For most will not go into the Military or a LEO angency.


Curious
:asian:



BTW: I am off to go watch UFC I believe with Marvin

 

[Black Bear]

Strategy, tactics and techniques are just words. They refer to classes of things, functions, ways of thought, they are not things in themselves. It seems to me pretty vacuous to discuss whether you can have one without the other.

You sure can have some strategy without tactics or technique but it'll be swiss cheese strategy. And likewise the other way.

There are some ways for civvies to learn tactics as they pertain to civvy self-defense. Seems to me it's usually from ex-mil/ex-LEO types, they've learned that way of thinking. How well they adapt their learning for civilian considerations, well, that depends. For instance this silly stuff that is taught in self-defense lessons, that when you think you're being followed you should check the reflection in store windows, then cross the street to see if they follow, etc. it acts as though discretion is the priority, and I would guess it comes from the mindset and operational considerations of like a plainclothes/detective-type operator. Not always very logical for street safety/self-protection.

I always suspected that Kelly McCann's Crucible facility would be pretty good.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't think there is any difference between tactic and technique. In MA techniques "beg the question" in many cases. For instance, what do you use a side kick for? How about a joint lock? For a person to say that I will drop a side kick to the knee in such and such situation is no different then describing a technique. The two are unified and should not be separated.

 

[loki09789]

technique alone: a bag of unconnected movements kicks, punches and so on, but never put together for a reason

tactics alone: The when (timing), how(preset combinations), why(awareness, sensitivity) to use techniques alone or in combination for a purpose, but since technical foundation has not been established, no one can make them happen, watch my hockey team play sometime.

strategy alone: a bunch of good ideas that no one really understands because they have no idea realistically what it takes (tactics and techniques) to get the job done.

They have to be separated for the sake of development of any part, but the better martial artists have a working understanding of how they relate.

Watch a kids sport team practice.

Tell them to dribble a hockey puck for technical development and they yawn and pay no attention, or make up a reason by trying to steal each other's pucks instead of doing the work.

Show them/have them practice good puck handling to see how it is an essential technique that combines with skating for fakes and puck possession for scoring chances and they will practice better.

Have them apply puck handling so they see fakes work and WHEN to make the fake as part of the offensive strategy that leads to scoring and they will put up with 'boring puck handling' practice.

The kids don't really see or care how it all works as long as they can check and score goals, but the coach and elite/competitive players at higher levels like the NHL see and understand that they have to develop each area to be a good performer in their chosen strategic arena.

Paul M

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think I agree with Paul Martin on this one.

A technique is just that a technique.

A tactic is using a technique to accomplish a task. The opponent to move a certain way to set them up for a better attack on your part. i.e fake or abort or Lansis.

 

[loki09789]

Rich P.

Ah, a fellow night owl! Work or pleasure?... Don't answer that, I don't want to picture you pleasured

Paul M

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by loki09789
Rich P.

Ah, a fellow night owl! Work or pleasure?... Don't answer that, I don't want to picture you pleasured

Paul M

Just got home from a UFC party. Very disapointed in the last fight and being called within the first minute for a medical injury to RC's eye. Oh well.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
A tactic is using a technique to accomplish a task. The opponent to move a certain way to set them up for a better attack on your part. i.e fake or abort or Lansis.

This seems like strategy to me. A punch is a punch and can be aim and strengthened until it really starts knocking. Using a punch at the end of a block-check-strike...isn't that a fighting strategy?

I've even played hockey. (dude, have ya checked my profile and seen where I live - its in my blood ) I have a sweet wrist shot and I can put it on a dime. Since I can't skate for crap, I mosey on down near the net and attempt to get open using methods fair and foul. When the puck comes my way...bang. Its all net. That is my strategy. Tactic = technique in this case.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
This seems like strategy to me. A punch is a punch and can be aim and strengthened until it really starts knocking. Using a punch at the end of a block-check-strike...isn't that a fighting strategy?

I've even played hockey. (dude, have ya checked my profile and seen where I live - its in my blood ) I have a sweet wrist shot and I can put it on a dime. Since I can't skate for crap, I mosey on down near the net and attempt to get open using methods fair and foul. When the puck comes my way...bang. Its all net. That is my strategy. Tactic = technique in this case.

A strategy may be as you say. Yet, to accomplish this strategy, one would have to maybe use the fake or bait tactics to get you to commit to your strike or block to allow for the optimum execution of the technique.

Also Strategy could be out lined at a slightly higher level or lessor detail. My Strategy or plan is to stay on the outside and try to do wear him down and or escape.

Now as the level of requirements get more detailed, the actual tactis come into play on how do stay on the outside and how you might plan you escape.

Now obviously your tactics will not include a Spinning kick if you have never trained to do one. So, you look up your filing system and bring your techniques up to the front and choose them as you think the best, to accomplish your tactic, which also then should accomplish your strategy.

In my mind, that are all very interconnected. Like a said a set of requirements that get more detailed as you get closer to the actual execution of something/anything/ or interaction with end user interface .

Now I can see where people could be trained in techniques only, and they have no idea on how to get people to move, or what their plan is to survive or win the confratation. To many young students I call this the blue belt blues ( This also happens to new Black Belts as well). They have some technique and feel good about it and they go out and act tough or get into a fight. They whole goal is to test themselves or what they know. Their plan or strategy is to go somewhere to find a fight. Their tactics include struting and or being obnoxious and always have a fre hand and or a clear path for their favorite foot. They almost always will have at least one or two techniques ready at the top of their mind.

In many cases these students get their proverbial rear ends handed to them. If they are lucky they survive and continue to train. If they "Win" there first few, their fall could be much worse in the long run. Some will leave claiming the art had nothign to offer and is fake. Some will elave and never train again, for they did not like the adrenaline rush nor the physical contact. And some will get a high from it and begin to walk the path of maybe becoming a bad guy .

Yet, this same student has not thought through, on the proper way to defend themsleves, such as avoiding the areas or people. Or wat the police ramifications will be to them. Where did they park their car? is it set up for a quick get away, do they have a friend near a door who can leave and get it ready? Is it blocked in? Do they plan to leave by the front door or the back? Who long does it take for the police to arrive? How long does it take for the security / bouncers to respond? Will their be people waiting for him in the parking lot? Will they have to run across snow and ise to get to their car? How many friends does the target have in the place of the confratation?

They may, have a strategy and or tactics in their mind. And Techniques that they favor. Yet, they all could be flawed and or not complete. As Patton ( I think ) and Marvin pointed out here, no Plan survives first encounter.

I see, Chad's comment being closer to the truth, that having all three is much more rare, then I would expect.

My Ramble, sorry
:asian:

 

[loki09789]

I see what you are saying with the wrist shot example.

The problem with tactic and strategy definitions is that they look the same sometimes depending on your source and what arena of application they are working with.

A wrist shot could be considered a technique because it is a fundamental skill that is with your skating and puck handling skill to get the shot off at the right time and at the right place.

It could also, depending on who you talk to, be considered a tactic because you are combining a series of physical control techniques (wrist rotation, muscle relaxation/tension control...) to execute the wrist shot.

I see it as a technique in hockey because the short term goal of putting the puck in the net at that moment is being accomplished by combining the wrist shot with your other techniques (good skating or bad skating aside).

Strategy is also goal oriented but more of a long term planning goal. tactics - win the moment, strategy - win the game.

It's nice to have someone who understands my sports analogies finally!
Paul martin

 

[loki09789]

Paul J already made the invite, but if this interests any of you, the slightly different variation of the same thing is in the 'empty hand' thread that Upnorth.. started on the Modern Arnis page.

Some of the posts, like mine, are long - sorry - but along the same lines as this, but the latest tangent seems to be wether there are tactics or tactical elements within martial arts/FMA/MA or is it outside. It's been really interesting.

Paul M.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yeah I've been following that thread and this thread seems to be a spin off. I only have a little experience with FMA though and much more with other arts, so it just feels like I can be a little more open to discuss the linkages (or lack there of) on this thread. Its a bit more general.

With that being said, back to sports.

The sweetest goal I ever scored started with me making a skating mistake that put my body horizontal into the air and rocketed me across the ice. As I flew spread eagle infront of the net, my technique was to extend everything as much as possible to take out as many people as possible. Three of the other team hit the ice and I jumped up. My buddy flipped the buck in my direction over a dude. I knocked the puck down with my head and flipped it into the upper right hand corner of the net.

My strategic goal was to win the game. All of the techniques I used flowed into that goal. It's very difficult to separate technique from tactic in this type of situation, which is reminiscent of a fight. A punch is just a punch. And so is a kick. Nobody just punches or kicks though. They have a target in mind and a desired effect they would like to see. So, in MA, I think that tactics and techniques are one in the same. I can't think of single martial art that trains blind technique in application.