Revised Policies: Non-Desirables

Omar B

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Just read some topics over at Bullshido this morning. As I said before, it's a pretty funny site. It does get a bit much sometimes with the piling on, seems like a witch hunt at times. I see opinions (often decenting) on the value of various styles treated as fact, like BBT. Many styles get savaged it seems in favor of almost stock answers in muay thai and bjj. A styles value in not measured solely by it's use in the ring, I always ask, best, by what standards.

There's also a really long topic about Choi Kwang Do and it's founder. Personally, I've trained in the style, met the man and several other instructors and I find both the style and him pretty cool. It was an interesting read, but it's not gonna change my opinion on the style or the man, I learned a lot that I value from it.

It's pretty fun over there, but for me it sometimes takes days to get back to a topic here and on K4L, I can imagine adding another site to that list. But as I said before, just like this place, it has it's value and serves it's purpose. Layout could be smoothed out though, to my eyes it seems cluttered.
 

Rich Parsons

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...

The key here, though, is that if there aren't any outlandish claims, there's no issue. I get a kick out of the guys who make claims and then, when questioned, say they have nothing to prove. "My WC is the REAL WC." Really? Prove it. "I have nothing to prove."

Steve et al,

And this maybe my problem from early on, both at Bullshido and MT in the early days. If someone called someone out, I would not tell them not too, but I would start asking questions of the person calling out to better understand their point of view and or agenda. I would be attacked, by multiple people and say I was being abusive and insulting. Once it got to the point I tried to be good. But what I found was that in many cases they either moved on and bullied others, or continued their comments. So, I would mirror them. If they said something one way I would say it back. If they called me a name I would call them that name. (* Something I learned a long time ago while bein in elementary and junior high, is that people call you the worst name they can think of, so if you call them the same name back it has a bigger impact may times than the name you might have used in the first place. *)

I am not innocent as I waded through the mud. But pigs and engineers like the mud. But today I prefer not to go through the mud, and let others worry about it.

I understand integrity.

I understand getting the word out to avoid others from being taking advantage of.

I understand that people want to believe that what they do is the best (* Ego, or else why would we may the money and spend the time? *).

I have had problems with some of the Balintawak Masters and their re-written history. Many of their students have gotten upset with me and attacked me online. But, I have always attacked their comments, not their skill set. I have even told people to go check them out for if they trained with the people from the club at that time, they should have some good knowledge, but their version of history is not even close to what any of the multiple lineages have. I argued the overlapping circles of the venn diagrahm for oral histories, while others will say my arguement back to me after I shown that it is not valid to publish your false story in a book and then use said book as a reference to validate the story.

So I understand the purpose of Bullshido. I just did not feel comfortable or accepted. But as you stated it not the same site as others nor should it be. :)
 

Errant108

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Second Bullshido Troll baned:
MT User:swordagjin
Bullshido User: unknown
Reason: Racist Postings with intent to disrupt forum / posted under fake name

Looks like the Low IQ crowd at Bullshido is doing their usual game playing despite the High IQ members there working on cooperating together. Guys, just to let you know, we'll still work with you, despite the couple of low IQ losers in question.

But I will continue to announce each and every one of their bannings as they happen.

We know for sure this guy is a Bully?
 
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Bob Hubbard

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We know for sure this guy is a Bully?
99% certain. Timing is suspicious, plus others on BSdo have indicated they also have registered fake accounts here. The content was close to posts made by several active BS members in the award thread and the 'mt harbors frauds' threads. I'd be happy to compare IP addresses with an admin over there I could trust, however so far I've received no reply to my offer from Phrost, and I wouldn't trust Cy any further than I could throw the Giza pyramids. Other aspects of the registration point at someone involved in the Morton threads there being behind it.
 

Errant108

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I'm cool with it as long as he's being banned for racism and not for being a Bully.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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For the record: Any member of Bullshido who can operate within our rules, who is coming here to contribute to the site is welcome. Any member of Bullshido who is coming here to be a jerk, disrupt, troll or try and show us up, will be banned. Replace "Bullshido" with any other site name as applicable.
 

shesulsa

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I'm cool with it as long as he's being banned for racism and not for being a Bully.

For the record: Any member of Bullshido who can operate within our rules, who is coming here to contribute to the site is welcome. Any member of Bullshido who is coming here to be a jerk, disrupt, troll or try and show us up, will be banned. Replace "Bullshido" with any other site name as applicable.

For clarity only - not trying to pick on anyone here - Bob, does the generally accepted definition of the term "bully" fall within the guidelines of acceptable behavior on MT? I'm asking in the general terms because I think what you laid out in the quote above pretty much defines (though not totally) a "bully."

Thanks.
 

Gordon Nore

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QFT. I'm not trashing Bullshido here either. People can get over zealous in their mission to root out fraud. All of a sudden people are being called frauds because their MA practice is unconventional, or maybe they just aren't terribly good at it. Fraud busting can be the veneer that covers for style bashing or rudeness.
No one is called a fraud for unconventional training methods.

We have a very VERY precise definition of a fraud. That is someone claiming to be something that they are not for the sake of profit...

Again, I'm not talking about Bullshido per se. I am talking about individuals who take it upon themselves to root out fraud or whatever they happen to think fraud is. I may know what fraud is. Bullshido may know what fraud is. But the Internet is full of self-proclaimed experts on a mission.

My post was in regard to the MT policy, and, as a member, I don't particularly want to see the forum cluttered up with threads professing to be fraud busting, but which in fact are attacks on character on style.

Whatever Bullshido is or does can take place on Bullshido.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Gordon, Like many things we do, anything under this particular heading is going to be funneled to 1 special area. As with anything, we'll make some mistakes, we'll learn and we'll get better.
 

jks9199

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For the record: Any member of Bullshido who can operate within our rules, who is coming here to contribute to the site is welcome. Any member of Bullshido who is coming here to be a jerk, disrupt, troll or try and show us up, will be banned. Replace "Bullshido" with any other site name as applicable.
Or no site name! We're equal opportunity; whether a troll and problem child comes here on their own or from any other forum, they'll be dealt with the same way.
 

jks9199

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Again, I'm not talking about Bullshido per se. I am talking about individuals who take it upon themselves to root out fraud or whatever they happen to think fraud is. I may know what fraud is. Bullshido may know what fraud is. But the Internet is full of self-proclaimed experts on a mission.

My post was in regard to the MT policy, and, as a member, I don't particularly want to see the forum cluttered up with threads professing to be fraud busting, but which in fact are attacks on character on style.

Whatever Bullshido is or does can take place on Bullshido.
I'm not speaking for Bob, and this is more my personal opinion than a guarantee of the official staff opinion. I'll let Bob or some more senior folks draw the official, Official Line. This is just my take...

If someone comes here, and politely and courteously question someone's credentials or knowledge... They're welcome to do so! When it becomes fraudbusting is when they start following the target from thread to thread, demanding they "prove themselves!" or when the questions become accusatory or personal attacks. It's a gray line -- but it's one of those things (maybe like one judge notably said about pornography) that you know when you see it.
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Pretty much my thoughts here.

Couple things to keep in mind:
- This isn't turning MT into BSjr.
- This isn't intended to change MT for most of our members.

It basically does 3 things:
1- Extends an invitation of cooperation with one of the few sites we don't maintain cordial relations with. (Most members aren't aware that MT is on good terms with other sites such as e-budo, budoseep, defend, martial arts planet, karate forums, fmatalk, fmaforum and kenponet to name a few. We cooperate in many ways, from technical assistance, to content sharing to just being able to say "hey, having any issues with X lately?".

2- Clarifies our existing policies better as there has been misunderstanding in the pst as to what is and isn't allowed.

3- Opens a focused area for our members and visitors to share concerns on schools, instructors, products and companies they are involved with in a professional manner.


This is not about Bullshido vs MartialTalk. Neither site will ever be the other, and that is a good thing, because both appeal to different niches and different types of people.


One point I must be clear on however.
Our policy allows anyone to question.
It does not require anyone to answer.
Anyone asking a question is doing so as a single private citizen, and I am unaware of any law that forces 1 citizen to answer another citizen, unless the questioner is a judge or law enforcement officer acting in an official manner. So, the argument "you don't make them answer" is because we aren't able to legally.
 

Steve

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Typing on phone so bear with me. I can't help but think that this has all gotten way more complicated than it needs to be. Why can't MT simply adopt a policy that makes it clear it's not a fraudbusting community, but in the event that sufficient evidence surfaces that a person is misrepresenting him or herself in a fraudulent way, MT will do... Something. Right now it's a ban. I don't necessarily agree with that but would get behind a "fraud" badge or something. I have found that less is more where rules are concerned.

And it a little funny to me that a bunch of libertarians are generating a Pretty severe policy document. :)
 

Jenna

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Yes I think I would agree with Steve. MT is as it says a place for friendly discussion of the martial arts. I do not think it was set up as a vetting agency for all the martial arts world's boasters, braggarts and miscreants. I think that would be a full-time position for anyone! Should these people appear then yes [and I have seen it aplenty here with many of the next-big-thing-RBMA guys who have come on all shouty and full of empty bravado] we should be at liberty to question those claims just as most of us would seek proof that Product X really DID clean our shirts whiter than any other, yes. OTOH, most of us are not here to don our capes and venture into the darkened realms of teh intran3t to quash those bold enough to claim one thing or another, we are only here for a little chat yes??

Though both of our sites have legally qualified and competent members, that is not the same as the sites being able [or capable] to enact any litigation in cases where fraud may be suspected. Therefore in all this Fraudbusters-vs-Harbourers farrago, I see a terrible amount of smoke and but I do not see any fire. I do not understand why any one site should feel in a morally superior position since if we are being brutally honest, we are mere MA discussion forums on the internet and not NATO. This kind of fraudbusting is a little too half-assed, incompetent and vigilante I think. I am sorry I do not want to be glib and but whilst I accept rivalry between sites discussing the same subject [that is a given] I do not see the reason for this degree of animosity. It is a little pathetic to me I think..

I think to have Bob and the staff here *** about checking credentials of every single poster would engender a forum filled with the most dreary to-and-fro, yes-I-am / no-you're-not inconclusive pantomime threads. Furthermore, in order for that kind of activity to have any legitimacy, the members on the site [whichever we are talking] would surely have to be themselves, trained and vetted for that specific task by the governing bodies on whose behalf they purport to act as "fraudbusters"??

I do not think it should be incumbent upon Bob or the staff to susbtantiate or disprove any claims. For me that would be veering towards the kind of small-scale despotism or I think Shesulsa referenced McCarthyism that I do not like to see on Bullshido yet it is there veiled under the banner of public service.

I would make another suggestion that MT [members collectively] might perhaps be able to compile a section or an INDEX perhaps in which visitors lacking experience and thinking of joining an MA club or school will appreciate potentially what to look for or questions to ask [insurance certification / instructors cleared to work with minors / how to spot competence of instructors etc] and which sites are those of the governing bodies of the various arts that they might do their own independent searches or find contact details etc. I think that is a task of some scale and perhaps not do-able and but I do not believe there is one single resource like that anywhere yet I think it would be a potentially big draw..

Jenna x
 
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Bob Hubbard

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Always good to have some tips and advice up.
 

shesulsa

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We do have a "Beginners Corner" and "Ask the MT Advisory Board" and it would be great if they were utilized more.
 

jks9199

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We do have a "Beginners Corner" and "Ask the MT Advisory Board" and it would be great if they were utilized more.
Some of those sorts of things are also stickied at the top of appropriate forums, too...
 

Xue Sheng

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Typing on phone so bear with me. I can't help but think that this has all gotten way more complicated than it needs to be. Why can't MT simply adopt a policy that makes it clear it's not a fraudbusting community, but in the event that sufficient evidence surfaces that a person is misrepresenting him or herself in a fraudulent way, MT will do... Something. Right now it's a ban. I don't necessarily agree with that but would get behind a "fraud" badge or something. I have found that less is more where rules are concerned.

And it a little funny to me that a bunch of libertarians are generating a Pretty severe policy document. :)

To some extent fraud busting has happened on MT and it was not, I have been told, against the rules. However the actual fraud was not the one posting but if he was I would have done the same exact thing and will should something similar happen in the future. It also happened with a poster talking Chen as well but I really did not feel like looking for it, it was a long time ago and in that case I reported it to the moderators.

Yang Fukui :rolleyes:

IMO if someone can come on any webpage and post blatant lies about their background, training or their teachers background and training it needs to be pointed out
 

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