Reverse Gravitational Marriage?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What is your understanding of it, an example of application, and/or a technique in which it is used. Came up in class the other day, and I couldn't help but be curious,.

I'm too verklempt; tualk amongst yourselves.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

What is your understanding of it, an example of application, and/or a technique in which it is used. Came up in class the other day, and I couldn't help but be curious,.

I'm too verklempt; tualk amongst yourselves.

reverse gravititational marriage is back-Up Mass on an upward plane. In laymans terms it's using the rising motion of the body to power an upward strike. Boxers use it all the time by driving their uppercuts up with their legs. American Kenpo Examples.

1. Scraping Hoof -- powers the headbutt to the face by straightening the legs
2. Defying the Storm -- powers the knee before the inward overhead elbow
3. Spreading Branch -- powers the knee before the inward overhead elbow
4. Locked Wing -- powers the knee
5. Flashing Wings -- powers the last handsword to face the (some schools versions)

Basically anytime you drop into a lower stance during a technique and then strike upward on the next count while returning to your 'regular height' you are using reverse marriage of gravity as you rise up.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

reverse gravititational marriage is back-Up Mass on an upward plane. In laymans terms it's using the rising motion of the body to power an upward strike. Boxers use it all the time by driving their uppercuts up with their legs. American Kenpo Examples.

1. Scraping Hoof -- powers the headbutt to the face by straightening the legs
2. Defying the Storm -- powers the knee before the inward overhead elbow
3. Spreading Branch -- powers the knee before the inward overhead elbow
4. Locked Wing -- powers the knee
5. Flashing Wings -- powers the last handsword to face the (some schools versions)

Basically anytime you drop into a lower stance during a technique and then strike upward on the next count while returning to your 'regular height' you are using reverse marriage of gravity as you rise up.

You WIN the boobie prize. That was fast...I expected more vacuous gazes on this one. Now, for a pot-stirrer...it's kinduva oxymoron. How can you reverse the direction of gravity? Is it just a pleasant way of reminding ourselves why were doing the thing we're doing, and in what direction? (that was my peeve over this concept/term/definition)

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rich_Hale]

reverse gravititational marriage is back-Up Mass on an upward plane.

I must respectfully disagree with Mr. (James) Hawkins.

Mr. Parker describes Reverse Marriage of Gravity as reversing the effects of gravity to enhance the potency of your action. This is right out of his Encyclopedia of Kenpo.

Note that he did not say it is reversing the direction or marriage of gravity, or reversing the principal or marriage of gravity, as one would be doing by straightening his legs for the head butt in Scrapping Hoof. That action is the opposite of marriage of gravity, because gravity is working against the action and not with it.

Carefully read Mr. Parker’s explanation of the term, it says reversing the EFFECTS of gravity, so gravational marriage is still taking place; only the effect it’s having on the action is being affected.

A example of reverse marriage of gravity is to be found in the beginning of Encounter with Danger; when you are first pushed to the ground. At this point you use reverse marriage of gravity to stabilize your base as you deliver a kick to his groin. It is considered “reverse marriage of gravity”, because you are taking advantage of what was supposed to be a negative use of gravity (you being pushed to the ground: and reversing its effect to enhance the potency of your kick to his groin.

Coincidently, reverse marriage of gravity is used in Scrapping Hoof; not as added power for the head butt, but when you bend your own left knee to add potency to the right scooping heel kick to your opponent’s inner knee. In this case you are taking what we would normally associate with a buckling, or destabilizing action and reversing the effect to add power to your own kick.

An example outside of reverse marriage of gravity, outside of any specific Kenpo technique would be . . . let’s say, if your opponent were to foot sweep you, but on the way down you reached out and grabbed his ear. Marriage of gravity will have still taken place, and you will still have been pulled to the ground, by it. But the effect of it will have been reversed. Now, instead of your opponent adding a takedown to accomplishments he will have just had his ear torn off.

By the way, I wouldn’t suggest trying to explain this to your opponent though, because I doubt the he would hear you anyway.

 

[DavidCC]

Would it be an example of this if you were to cause your oppoent to fall into a strike? Take out a leg and they meet a knee on the way down or something like that?

-D

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I must respectfully disagree with Mr. (James) Hawkins.

Mr. Parker describes Reverse Marriage of Gravity as reversing the effects of gravity to enhance the potency of your action. This is right out of his Encyclopedia of Kenpo.

Note that he did not say it is reversing the direction or marriage of gravity, or reversing the principal or marriage of gravity, as one would be doing by straightening his legs for the head butt in Scrapping Hoof. That action is the opposite of marriage of gravity, because gravity is working against the action and not with it.

Carefully read Mr. Parker’s explanation of the term, it says reversing the EFFECTS of gravity, so gravational marriage is still taking place; only the effect it’s having on the action is being affected.

A example of reverse marriage of gravity is to be found in the beginning of Encounter with Danger; when you are first pushed to the ground. At this point you use reverse marriage of gravity to stabilize your base as you deliver a kick to his groin. It is considered “reverse marriage of gravity”, because you are taking advantage of what was supposed to be a negative use of gravity (you being pushed to the ground: and reversing its effect to enhance the potency of your kick to his groin.

Coincidently, reverse marriage of gravity is used in Scrapping Hoof; not as added power for the head butt, but when you bend your own left knee to add potency to the right scooping heel kick to your opponent’s inner knee. In this case you are taking what we would normally associate with a buckling, or destabilizing action and reversing the effect to add power to your own kick.

An example outside of reverse marriage of gravity, outside of any specific Kenpo technique would be . . . let’s say, if your opponent were to foot sweep you, but on the way down you reached out and grabbed his ear. Marriage of gravity will have still taken place, and you will still have been pulled to the ground, by it. But the effect of it will have been reversed. Now, instead of your opponent adding a takedown to accomplishments he will have just had his ear torn off.

By the way, I wouldn’t suggest trying to explain this to your opponent though, because I doubt the he would hear you anyway.

For an accurate description of Marriage of gravity and reverse marriage of gravity view Mr. Planas videos on forms. In particular the video on Short 3 where he discusses marriage of gravity and it's reverse with reference to dropping the height to power the elbow in crossing talon and raising the height to power the headbutt in scraping hoof.

Also view his video on Short form 2 with regard to the racking middle-knuckle that first displays marriage of gravity used in a form.

I stand by what I said previous as without 'reverse marriage of gravity' as I described it earlier one of the directions we direct force is missing:

3 Forms of Power with 2 directions piece.

Torque Version 1 - turning in same direction as a strike (i.e. uppercut in Five swords)
Torque Version 2 - turning in the direction opposite a strike to whip the strike out. also called counter torque. (i.e. 2nd downward block in thrusting salute)
Back Up Mass Version 1 - launching toward opponent to power a strike by pushing. (i.e. heel palm in thrusting salute)
Back Up mass Version 2 - launching away from an opponent to power a strike by pulling. (i.e. back knuckles to kidneys in Blinding Sacrifice)
Marriage of Gravity Version 1 - Settling or dropping to power a downward blow (i.e. handsword in sword of destruction)
Marriage of Gravity Version 2 - Rising to power an upward blow. Also called reverse marriage of gravity. (i.e. the front knee in defying the storm).

From a physics standpoint the 'effect' of earth's gravity is to exhibit a downward pull towards the earth. To reverse that is to exhibit an upward push away from the earth. That's what the encyclopedia means when it states "involves reversing the effects of gravity to enhance the potency of your action." The 'effects of gravity' involve a pull and a direction down.

Marriage of gravity is a downward manuever and all of Kenpo's maneuvers have two directions of which one is classified as reverse. Examples:
Step Drag forward-reverse
Push Drag forwad-reverse
Crossover forward-reverse
Pull Drag forward-reverse

Settling is also a maneuver. So if settling is dropping down and we classify that as 'marriage of gravity' what do you call it when you raise back up? Reverse marriage of gravity or reverse settling.

Respectfully your in Kenpo,
James

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Would it be an example of this if you were to cause your oppoent to fall into a strike? Take out a leg and they meet a knee on the way down or something like that?

-D

That falls under "borrowed force", "colliding forces" and "guided collision".

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

See, now, I just have to pass on a compliment to the brainiacs of kenpo. Keeping track of all these definitions was hard enough, then "they" added the algebra-type formulations, and all hell broke loose between my ears. I can learn anything for about ten minutes. After the short-term memory effect wears off, I have to fall back on the "pure knuckles meet pure flesh" thing, because these def's escape me.

My best answer to quizzes has always only ever been, "What's it called when you just grab a guy and hit him?"

Respects to y'all,

Dave

 

[pete]

didn't superman use this technique in the sequel to turn back time and save lois...

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

didn't superman use this technique in the sequel to turn back time and save lois...

No, that was a forgotten technique called "circling the globe". Uses the principle of reversing and retracing the orbital path. LOL

 

[Rich_Hale]

For an accurate description of Marriage of gravity and reverse marriage of gravity view Mr. Planas videos on forms. . . . From a physics standpoint the 'effect' of earth's gravity is to exhibit a downward pull towards the earth. To reverse that is to exhibit an upward push away from the earth. QUOTE]

I will be the first to say that Huk Planas is one of the most knowledgeable Kenpo instructors alive today. I have known Huk for many years and have traveled from Alaska to California just to spend the weekend with him.

“But” all I'm saying, is that my answer to the original question: What is reverse marriage of gravity? - is that when Mr. Parker documented what it meant to him - he put it in writing. One example of this is in the technique Scraping Hoof. There, in the second paragraph, he says:

“Immediately (1) bend your left knee (REVERSE MARRIAGE OF GRAVITY) as you deliver a right back side scooping heel kick to your opponent’s left inner knee . . .”

Here Mr. Parker clearly states that reverse marriage of gravity is being used at the time you are bending the left knee. These are Mr. Parker’s words, not my opinion. So, if Mr. Parker considered this to be reverse marriage of gravity, who am I to disagree with him?

I think we should all keep open minds when it comes to the terminology Mr. Parker once used and the terminology Mr. Parker most recently used.

For example: We could demonstrate 6th technique in yellow belt to a great many old timers and they would (correctly) tell us its name is "The Pincher" but demonstrate the same technique to anyone who received their black belt in the last 10 years, or so, and they would (also correctly) tell you the name of that technique is "The Grasp of Death".

Further ask Huk, for example, what the last technique is in yellow belt and he is likely to say "Intellectual Departure", then he may pause and say "I mean, it used to be Intellectual Departure, but Mr. Parker changed it some years ago to "Sword and Hammer".

My point is that I don't doubt that, at some time, Mr. Parker may have very well thought, and spoke, of reverse marriage of gravity in the very terms you are describing. But like the above technique, Mr. Parker was busy refining his techniques, terminology, and entire system right up to the day he passed away.

Another good example of this refining process is the technique "Checking the Storm".

My original 70's technique manual says the first move in Checking the Storm is:

"With your feet together have your right foot step to 3 o'clock as you execute a left extended outward strike to the inner wrist of opponent's striking right arm while dropping into a left 45 degree cat stance facing 11 o'clock."

My 1992 technique manual says the first move in Checking the Storm is:

"Standing naturally, as your opponent swings his club in an overhead fashion, quickly step off to your right with your right foot toward 3 o’clock. Simultaneously drag your left foot toward your right foot as you form a left 45 degree cat stance facing 10:30. Without a break in the flow of your action execute a left extended outward handsword block to the inner wrist of your opponent’s right arm. During the natural flow of our motion have your right hand precede your left hand as a right parry (executed in the manner of a right inward block) that stops, hand open, to act as a check in front of your solar-plexus."

I have no doubt that you are a very competent martial artist, who I would be proud to share the mat with, and I can guarantee you something else. I'll never sneak up on you and surprise you with a full nelson, because I think your head butt might very well smash my lower jaw through my upper brain - no matter what we called the technique, or the principles within it.

Thank you my friend for a spirited conversation.

With all due respect, your brother in Kenpo

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

In Kenpo if I were to tell a student to launch backwards while striking forward with a back-knuckle every black belt in the room would say. "you're splitting their power, they have to launch in the diection of their strikes to put mass behind the strikes." That's why tournaments don't call points for attacks while retreating. No power as the strike and the body are going in opposite directions. So why is it that people insist that reverse marriage of gravity is dropping downward to aid an upward strike? It's the same as the above example but on a vertical instead of a horizontal plane. The mass is still being moved in the opposite direction of the strike. It's still splitting power and violates principles such as back-up mass and directional harmony. I was taught that Mr. Parker said and wrote a great many things just to see if people would actually think on their own or just go with it because he said it was so or because it was written down. I have to wonder if this is one of them. The laws of physics just won't allow for an increase in power from moving a mass AWAY from an object when no rotation is involved. Let alone the minor detail that for every inch the body moves one way that's an inch less the weapon has to penetrate if it's going the other way due to distance. Less penetration equals less transfer of kinetic energy or force. But enough about the physics of kenpo.

Respectfully,
James

 

[JamesB]

Isn't gravitational marriage just a round-about way of saying "establish your base"??? The same goes with the reverse-gravitational-marriage (not that I've heard this term before though). From the description(s) of dropping your weight whilst striking upwards, is this not settling into a stance to create a sound structure from which to strike from?

I've never been totally convinced that gravitational marriage is a useful term - it seems to be used to describe how your mass accelerates if allowed to "drop" in a gravitational field...and use this extra acceleration and momentum to aid power to their strikes. So I've got two thoughts which I'd welcome discussion on:

1. The only direction that you would gain any benefit for your strikes is in the same direction as you are dropping - i.e. straight down.

2. The small distances involved in the "drop" (just a few inches in most cases) would result in negligable acceleration of the body and I suggest that actually very little extra power would be generated from just the effects of your body (as a whole) dropping in height.

So I argue that there are other factors involved here. Although it looks like the body drops down whilst striking, the increase in power is actually achieved through attaining a structured base from which to strike *first*, then the strike is delivered with more potential than it had before.

So (finally returning to the original topic) reverse gravitational marriage is essentially the same as gravitational marriage - it uses the same underlying ideas of body structure and focus etc, and is just a different way of looking at these ideas.

Just my thoughts, any comments from anyone?

-james

 

[kenposikh]

Isn't gravitational marriage just a round-about way of saying "establish your base"??? The same goes with the reverse-gravitational-marriage (not that I've heard this term before though). From the description(s) of dropping your weight whilst striking upwards, is this not settling into a stance to create a sound structure from which to strike from?

I've never been totally convinced that gravitational marriage is a useful term - it seems to be used to describe how your mass accelerates if allowed to "drop" in a gravitational field...and use this extra acceleration and momentum to aid power to their strikes. So I've got two thoughts which I'd welcome discussion on:

1. The only direction that you would gain any benefit for your strikes is in the same direction as you are dropping - i.e. straight down.

2. The small distances involved in the "drop" (just a few inches in most cases) would result in negligable acceleration of the body and I suggest that actually very little extra power would be generated from just the effects of your body (as a whole) dropping in height.

So I argue that there are other factors involved here. Although it looks like the body drops down whilst striking, the increase in power is actually achieved through attaining a structured base from which to strike *first*, then the strike is delivered with more potential than it had before.

So (finally returning to the original topic) reverse gravitational marriage is essentially the same as gravitational marriage - it uses the same underlying ideas of body structure and focus etc, and is just a different way of looking at these ideas.

Just my thoughts, any comments from anyone?

-james

Hi James good points there. Well yet again I feel that this is Kenpo trying to be overcomplicated with its terminology and confusing people. Let me explain.

Gravity is the natural force of the planet pulling everyone down and so going with this force is easier than going against agreed?

However making your opponent move in this downward direction with some good checks such as close or wide kneels as in Flashing wings does indeed enhance your final palm heel/ hand sword strike not because you are applying reverse gravitational marriage but because you have consolidated your base dropped your wieght and in doing so have caused your opponent to come downwards unwillingly in to the path of your strike.


I would have to disagree that the small distance would make negligible difference and at some point if we get together I can try to explain furhter.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Isn't gravitational marriage just a round-about way of saying "establish your base"??? The same goes with the reverse-gravitational-marriage (not that I've heard this term before though). From the description(s) of dropping your weight whilst striking upwards, is this not settling into a stance to create a sound structure from which to strike from?

I've never been totally convinced that gravitational marriage is a useful term - it seems to be used to describe how your mass accelerates if allowed to "drop" in a gravitational field...and use this extra acceleration and momentum to aid power to their strikes. So I've got two thoughts which I'd welcome discussion on:

1. The only direction that you would gain any benefit for your strikes is in the same direction as you are dropping - i.e. straight down.

2. The small distances involved in the "drop" (just a few inches in most cases) would result in negligable acceleration of the body and I suggest that actually very little extra power would be generated from just the effects of your body (as a whole) dropping in height.

So I argue that there are other factors involved here. Although it looks like the body drops down whilst striking, the increase in power is actually achieved through attaining a structured base from which to strike *first*, then the strike is delivered with more potential than it had before.

So (finally returning to the original topic) reverse gravitational marriage is essentially the same as gravitational marriage - it uses the same underlying ideas of body structure and focus etc, and is just a different way of looking at these ideas.

Just my thoughts, any comments from anyone?

-james

It's obvious you haven't been shown how to properly use marriage of gravity and I would suggest you take Amrik up on his offer.


DarK LorD

 

[Kenpodoc]

Isn't gravitational marriage just a round-about way of saying "establish your base"??? The same goes with the reverse-gravitational-marriage (not that I've heard this term before though). From the description(s) of dropping your weight whilst striking upwards, is this not settling into a stance to create a sound structure from which to strike from?

I've never been totally convinced that gravitational marriage is a useful term - it seems to be used to describe how your mass accelerates if allowed to "drop" in a gravitational field...and use this extra acceleration and momentum to aid power to their strikes. So I've got two thoughts which I'd welcome discussion on:

1. The only direction that you would gain any benefit for your strikes is in the same direction as you are dropping - i.e. straight down.

2. The small distances involved in the "drop" (just a few inches in most cases) would result in negligable acceleration of the body and I suggest that actually very little extra power would be generated from just the effects of your body (as a whole) dropping in height.

So I argue that there are other factors involved here. Although it looks like the body drops down whilst striking, the increase in power is actually achieved through attaining a structured base from which to strike *first*, then the strike is delivered with more potential than it had before.

So (finally returning to the original topic) reverse gravitational marriage is essentially the same as gravitational marriage - it uses the same underlying ideas of body structure and focus etc, and is just a different way of looking at these ideas.

Just my thoughts, any comments from anyone?

-james

Gravity makes the body accelerate very quickly. As an experiment, spin around and around in your back yard till you can no longer balance and see how hard the ground strikes you. As adults most times we fall we actually ease ourselves down and we forget how fast we are moving.

Jeff

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Gravity makes the body accelerate very quickly. As an experiment, spin around and around in your back yard till you can no longer balance and see how hard the ground strikes you. As adults most times we fall we actually ease ourselves down and we forget how fast we are moving.

Jeff

LOL

 

[RaysOnAwaV]

After reading a few of the post on marriage of gravity and reverse marriage of gravite it reminded me of a technique I saw Mr. Tatum showing on his tip of the week.

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week37/TipOfTheWeekMedW37.html

Kenpojujitsu3,

Notice the heel palm strike about half way through the technique. I think it is a perfect example of marriage of gravity and rotational force. Now as his heel palm is striking on an upward motion as his body weight is settling toward the ground, would you consider this reverse marriage of gravity?

Ray

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

1. The only direction that you would gain any benefit for your strikes is in the same direction as you are dropping - i.e. straight down.

2. The small distances involved in the "drop" (just a few inches in most cases) would result in negligable acceleration of the body and I suggest that actually very little extra power would be generated from just the effects of your body (as a whole) dropping in height.

Gravitational marriage is not mearly establishing base. It is reducing height by a sudden drop. Establishing base falls under posture and is a static quality. It does not involve movement. Your desk has a stable structured base. It doesn't drop every now and then to get a stable base. The same is true of neutral bow stance. can you remain in a neutral bow for long periods of time (stability) or do you have to drop every now and then to remain in place?

Answer to number 1. True. From a physics standpoint only strikes travelling on a downward plane (even diagonal planes) would benefit from dropping straight down.

Answer to number 2. False. From a physics standpoint force generated equals the mass of an object times its acceleration. Distance is irrelevant as long as enough acceleration is achieved. 2 inches difference can generate a large amount of acceleration hense a large amount of force. This is due to human bodies being "light" with regards to earth's gravitational pull which means very little inertia. Small inertia means it's easier to accelerate an object in a shorter span of time and with less distance.

"it seems to be used to describe how your mass accelerates if allowed to "drop" in a gravitational field...and use this extra acceleration and momentum to aid power to their strikes."

From a physics standpoint that's exactly what gravitational marriage does with strikes on downward planes.

Respectfully,
James

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

After reading a few of the post on marriage of gravity and reverse marriage of gravite it reminded me of a technique I saw Mr. Tatum showing on his tip of the week.

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week37/TipOfTheWeekMedW37.html

Kenpojujitsu3,

Notice the heel palm strike about half way through the technique. I think it is a perfect example of marriage of gravity and rotational force. Now as his heel palm is striking on an upward motion as his body weight is settling toward the ground, would you consider this reverse marriage of gravity?

Ray

No. That's colliding forces, borrowed force and a guided collision. That's why the opponent is dropped into the upward heel palm. If the opponent wasn't falling that kind of heel palm would have little effect as the kenpoist's body mass is going in the opposite direction. That strike uses the opponent's body momentum to run into the strike so that the kenpoist has time to put his foot back down to have a base for the next series of strikes.

Respectfully,
James