Requirement ifferences between WTF and ATA

[SFC JeffJ]

I was wondering what are the differences between requirements for Black Belt between these two organizations. I know the forms are different, but what about breaking, step sparring, sparring and the like.

 

[Balrog]

ATA Instructor here.

I am a stickler for low rank material and have somewhat of a reputation for more exacting tests than other instructors. To my way of thinking, a Black Belt should be able to perform any form from White Belt up to current rank, plus associated one-steps, etc. My Black Belt candidates go out on the floor knowing that they are going to do a minimum of 6 forms; they just don't know which ones.

In addition, they will demonstrate whatever the weapons topic is for the current testing cycle, plus at least one other weapon. They have to spar a minimum of three rounds. And they have to do their board breaks.

Sorry, I don't know what the WTF requirements are.

 

[Kacey]

ATA Instructor here.

I am a stickler for low rank material and have somewhat of a reputation for more exacting tests than other instructors. To my way of thinking, a Black Belt should be able to perform any form from White Belt up to current rank, plus associated one-steps, etc. My Black Belt candidates go out on the floor knowing that they are going to do a minimum of 6 forms; they just don't know which ones.

In addition, they will demonstrate whatever the weapons topic is for the current testing cycle, plus at least one other weapon. They have to spar a minimum of three rounds. And they have to do their board breaks.

Sorry, I don't know what the WTF requirements are.

I don't know about being a stickler... our association (YCTA) requires all testing candidates - of whatever rank - to do all the patterns they know - which means candidates testing for VI Dan do all 24. You can also be asked to perform any technique from any rank up to the one you're testing for, including all variations of step sparring, free sparring, and any exercises... along with sparring, breaking, hol-sin-sul, and knowledge requirements.

 

[bigfootsquatch]

Considering any WTF instructor of a certain rank can test potential black belts and then have them certified(ever how that works), I imagine that lower ranking black belts have different tests. Higher belts have to overseas to get tested. I don't know how there's are.

 

[stone_dragone]

I'm not sure about other schools in the ATA, but I'm pleased to hear that Balrog holds his black belts to a higher standard. In a few of the ATA schools I've seen, it seems that the material is very rank specific and when I asked a red belt to show me the orange belt form, he couldn't.

This was very, shall I say, disappointing.

For the record, I hold an ATA 1st degree black belt and due to not practicing those forms, I need serious refresher on them. As for my Shotokan and Goju forms, they are much better since they are my focus.

 

[stoneheart]

In a few of the ATA schools I've seen, it seems that the material is very rank specific and when I asked a red belt to show me the orange belt form, he couldn't.

Probably a consequence of the "block teaching" method. I myself think the Songahm curriculum is very well done, even if some of their other ideas like block teaching and 45 minute classes aren't to my taste.

 

[Gemini]

If by WTF you mean Kukkiwon, I can tell you what I was required to do, but not all of these things are a requirement at all Kukkiwon Dan 1 certifications.

Basic/Int/Adv hand/foot techniques.
All 8 Taeguek Poomses
Step sparrings per blet rank (school specific)
Kicking Combinations (school specific)
Breaks (Multiple basic hand and foot techniques, 1 power break, 1 demonstration break)
Sparring - 6 1 round matches under WTF rules.
Essay. (school specific)
Endurance testing (multiple types x 1 1/2 minutes each.)

Again, I believe the Taeguek Poomses are a requirement for all (correct me if I'm wrong) Kukkiwon Dan 1 certifications. Besides that, I believe everything else is school specific, though in discussions with other Kukkiwon BB's, it seems they tend to be overall very similar.

 

[stone_dragone]

Probably a consequence of the "block teaching" method. I myself think the Songahm curriculum is very well done, even if some of their other ideas like block teaching and 45 minute classes aren't to my taste.

I agree that the curriculum as planned out by H.U. Lee is very well planned. The block system, on the other hand, while easier to teach is a detriment to students...IMO.

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

If by WTF you mean Kukkiwon, I can tell you what I was required to do, but not all of these things are a requirement at all Kukkiwon Dan 1 certifications.

Basic/Int/Adv hand/foot techniques.
All 8 Taeguek Poomses
Step sparrings per blet rank (school specific)
Kicking Combinations (school specific)
Breaks (Multiple basic hand and foot techniques, 1 power break, 1 demonstration break)
Sparring - 6 1 round matches under WTF rules.
Essay. (school specific)
Endurance testing (multiple types x 1 1/2 minutes each.)

Again, I believe the Taeguek Poomses are a requirement for all (correct me if I'm wrong) Kukkiwon Dan 1 certifications. Besides that, I believe everything else is school specific, though in discussions with other Kukkiwon BB's, it seems they tend to be overall very similar.

Right on Gemini, I agree with your good overall description. I'm a Kukkiwon certified BB too, and my 1st dan black belt test ran along these general lines. Of course it wasn't identical though because, as you mentioned, each WTF/Kukkiwon affiliated dojang has their own curriculum, requirements and their own nuances. But for the most part they follow the same general outline you stated, especially the poomse/hyung/forms part. We had to know kibon white belt poomse, all 8 taegueks and 1st dan BB Koryo poomse.

When I tested for 2nd dan I had to know all 8 Palgwes and 2nd dan BB Kumgang poomse in addition to the previous 10 forms I had to learn for 1st dan (so 19 total). Fun stuff...

 

[TKDmel]

When I tested for I dan (kukkiwon cert.) back in 1988, my master was very traditional. My test was an awesome experience and one that I will never forget. Each of us had to do Kibon poomse, all 8 palgues and tagueks, all one step sparring, 1 power, 1 speed, 1 personal choice breaks, and full contact, fully geared up, sparring against one of the many BBs that lined the outer perimeter of the floor, each one wishing for the chance to initiate you into their ranks. It was a solemn occasion with results that were not a foregone conclusion as many are today. The highlight of my test was the full contact sparring. I squared off with a BB that was somewhat bigger than me. When the referee said go, he came right in on me and out of nowhere, I spun and threw a spinning kick, felt the foam headgear at my heel, came around for a roundhouse and was pushed back by the ref. He asked him if he was o.k. and he said he felt a little dizzy, and proceeded to fall back to the floor, passed out. Later, the other BBs, including the one who fought me, bought me a drink and asked what took so long. I passed!

Back in the day testing was a solemn event and was a closed testing with only the masters and other BBs allowed. I know I rambled, so forgive me this time.

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm not sure about other schools in the ATA, but I'm pleased to hear that Balrog holds his black belts to a higher standard. In a few of the ATA schools I've seen, it seems that the material is very rank specific and when I asked a red belt to show me the orange belt form, he couldn't.

This was very, shall I say, disappointing.

For the record, I hold an ATA 1st degree black belt and due to not practicing those forms, I need serious refresher on them. As for my Shotokan and Goju forms, they are much better since they are my focus.

This has nothing to do with being an ATA school. I've seen high ranked students in MANY schools that don't remember forms that they should. I'm sure you'd agree.

 

[TKDmel]

This has nothing to do with being an ATA school. I've seen high ranked students in MANY schools that don't remember forms that they should. I'm sure you'd agree.

I agree with you Iceman. Depending on the school specific curriculum, there can be numerous forms to learn and know well by the time people test for BB. I myself, need to go over all my forms(21 plus 24+ one steps) from time to time to work out the kinks. If I was observed on an off day by someone who knew the forms, but not me, they may think badly as well.

 

[bluekey88]

Ive encountered this at my WTF school, a traditional karate school (goju ryu), my old Aikido dojo...all over. Mind you, a high ranking student who consitently can't remember parts of the curriculum has a prolblem...but someone having an off day happens. Especially at higher ranks where there is a lot of stuff to remember (and practice to keep fresh). A good indicator of talent then is how fast someone can pick up something that they once knew but have since forgotten. Previously memorized things should come back with just a little effort.

Peace,
Erik

 

[IcemanSK]

I didn't mean to hi-jack this thread by focusing on what some students don't know.

For the record, I know a guy who says he was given a KKW BB (I don't doubt him, but his instructor) & he says that he's never done forms of any kind. Instructors bear the blame for that, obviously.

 

[zDom]

I didn't mean to hi-jack this thread by focusing on what some students don't know.

For the record, I know a guy who says he was given a KKW BB (I don't doubt him, but his instructor) & he says that he's never done forms of any kind. Instructors bear the blame for that, obviously.

That is just plain sad. Forms are a central, essential part of TKD.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Thanks for all the great answers. I was just curious as my wife is preparing a student for his BB testing this August and that got me thinking about how other schools/orgs might do it.

Thanks again,

Jeff

 

[Balrog]

I'm not sure about other schools in the ATA, but I'm pleased to hear that Balrog holds his black belts to a higher standard. In a few of the ATA schools I've seen, it seems that the material is very rank specific and when I asked a red belt to show me the orange belt form, he couldn't.

This was very, shall I say, disappointing.

You have no idea how disappointing, my friend.

I sometimes feel like the lone voice crying in the wilderness. I'm one of very few instructors in the ATA who is still teaching "traditional" instead of block. I'm not terribly sure the organization will ever recover from the damage done by block teaching.

 

[Balrog]

I agree that the curriculum as planned out by H.U. Lee is very well planned. The block system, on the other hand, while easier to teach is a detriment to students...IMO.

Word!

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

That is just plain sad. Forms are a central, essential part of TKD.

Yep, I practice all of the poomse I've learned so far on a regular basis. If I don't run through them regularly I know I'll start forgetting them. Anyway, I've always enjoyed practicing poomse.

IMO, if you put in a focused effort and perform all of the techniques correctly instead of just doing them half-assed, as I've noticed a lot of TKD practitioners tend to do, then poomse practice can be a great workout. It's also a good way to practice TKD when your TKD training partners aren't around.

 

[stone_dragone]

This has nothing to do with being an ATA school. I've seen high ranked students in MANY schools that don't remember forms that they should. I'm sure you'd agree.

You are correct, Iceman. It was a bit unfair of me to specify the ATA in that statement.

I do tend to be less forgiving of some things than I should be. I often to fall into the old trap of "...things were so much tougher in my day..." and things of that nature.