Rape, Cult Worship, Integrity and an open letter to martial artists from Ryan Hall

[Steve]

I don't know whether you guys are aware, but within the BJJ community, some seriously bad stuff happeneda few weeks ago. Essentially, a female who trained in BJJ ran into a couple of her training partners at a club. She'd been drinking and so they offered her a ride home. Instead, they took her to a parking garage and raped her repeatedly. Fortunately, they were caught on surveillance cameras and have been arrested.

Matthew Maldonado, Nicholas Schultz accused in New Year's Eve rape
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/0...-new-year-s-eve-rape-83850.html#ixzz2IMzrjhp9

As it turns out, Lloyd Irvin, the instructor of these guys, has been implicated in similar behavior in the past. http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/1/10/3856994/team-lloyd-irvin-rape-case

And now Ryan Hall, who split from Lloyd Irvin in 2009 (which was a big deal at the time) has written an open letter to all martial artists. I read the entire document and believe that it's worth the time to read.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/121007439/Open-Letter-to-the-Martial-Arts-Community

I'm disgusted by the entire thing and applaud Ryan Hall for acting with integrity and having the courage to speak out.

 

[ballen0351]

I was wondering if or when this would end up here. You know the sad part is I live near there and even went to a Lloyd Irving school to try out a class and this has not even really made the news here. I first learned about this on a BJJ forum

 

[Steve]

I was wondering if or when this would end up here. You know the sad part is I live near there and even went to a Lloyd Irving school to try out a class and this has not even really made the news here. I first learned about this on a BJJ forum

I've been following it since it broke. It's gone crazy on Facebook. No way I'd associate with Irvin after learning about the 1989 allegation, much less the rest.

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[arnisador]

Go to learn self-defense and this happens..disgusting.

 

[ballen0351]

I've been following it since it broke. It's gone crazy on Facebook. No way I'd associate with Irvin after learning about the 1989 allegation, much less the rest.

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Its even worse that he bought the lloydirvingrape.com webpage. Just a sick man.

 

[chinto]

very sad when things like this happen.

 

[oftheherd1]

Well, I did read the posting of Ryan Hall linked to the the original post. Quite lengthy for what seems to be the message. He seems to be saying he followed in the footsteps of his teachers, even thought he knew they were or might be wrong. But hey, he finally saw the light and changed to being a good guy. That's nice, but why didn't he know better to begin with? Or did he and just let temptation ruled him?

Don't misunderstand, we all are subject to making mistakes, and at whatever point one realizes they have been doing something wrong, and makes a change, with apologies and restoration if possible, that is good. But there should be no attempt at justification.

As to the controversy of the alleged rape, that is something all people in positions of authority must guard against. People subject to direction of doctors, camp counselors, clergy, and yes, MA instructors among others, may seek to exploit a real or imaged desire for intimacy on the part of the authority figure, or just wish to satisfy their own desires.

(EDIT: In the above paragraph, I am speaking of MA teachers needing to be always on guard against temptation whether unsolicited or not. It is a real danger and gets reported within MA ranks from time to time. It soils us all. whether true or not.)

The authority figure must guard against the desire to interact incorrectly with those in whatever status under them, such as students. Whether it is an innate weakness they themselves have, or a desire on the part of a student to be a favored-one, with sexual favors as the currency to purchase that status, or both.

Bad move either way. Worse of course if it is all a weakness on the part of the authority figure to exploit others.

And although there is no excuse for rape, period, I hope all understand they must as much as possible, maintain all their faculties, and not subjegate their faculties to anything, alcohol or drugs, that places them in a position of not being able to make good judgements and defend themselves.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Here is a response from some of the Gracies when they heard about it. It's about 1/2 an hour long, but I think they make some really good points. It's worth watching if you have the time to spare.
I first heard of this from my instructor and we have nothing to do with BJJ, but I think this is something anyone in the MA community would be outraged about.

 

[Tgace]

Unfortunately this sort of crap isn't just a BJJ phenomenon.

 

[Guy Preston]

I must have been living down a hole!! This is the first I've seen of this....

Absolutely disgusting, anyone associated with this should be expelled from whatever organisation they belong to, stripped of all ranks, etc, etc, etc.....

In Japanese arts there is a form of expulsion called Hamon, which although difficult to police now, the idea behind was that if a student was Hamon, no other martial art school would take them on.... this should apply.

Just a shame that although caught, I doubt the justice system will do the poor girl any real service...

Integrity should be key to operating any kind of martial arts school, class, whatever...

I hope the actions of these few don't leave a stain, or put people off BJJ in general - hopefully things like this linked to searches about the school in question will stop any unsuspecting new students from attending!!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It is just disgusting. As TGace said unfortunately it is not just a BJJ thing as there are simply jerks and criminals in all walks of life.
Recently I posted some thoughts on my blog so you can take a look here:
http://brianvancise.wordpress.com/2...havior-criminal-acts-etc-in-the-martial-arts/

 

[Tgace]

Let me open this up philosophically...

Why do we think Martial Arts and Martial Artists should be "more" than any other hobby/sport/profession/person? More virtuous, more integrity, more this more that...

I've hung out in boxing clubs and with boxers. In THAT world you would have to be a chump to think anyone in the gym was necessarily a "better person" simply because of the discipline of boxing.

Where do we get this idea from? Where did it originate?

 

[ballen0351]

I think it comes from the fantasy that our arts are "pure". Our arts "founders" are almost worshiped I know every dojo I've been in usually has a picture of its founder. People can't picture that these were normal men some were good some were not. Some were just like people today drunks and criminals.
So people forget that they were just people. So they look the same at martial artists we should all have higher standards. When in reality were just normal people some good some bad some drunks and criminals.
I know my teacher jas refused to teach people he thought were there for other then honorable reasons. Some schools wouldnt do that.

 

[dancingalone]

Let me open this up philosophically...

Why do we think Martial Arts and Martial Artists should be "more" than any other hobby/sport/profession/person? More virtuous, more integrity, more this more that...

I've hung out in boxing clubs and with boxers. In THAT world you would have to be a chump to think anyone in the gym was necessarily a "better person" simply because of the discipline of boxing.

Where do we get this idea from? Where did it originate?

It's part and parcel of many martial arts schools. Indeed it's written into the Dojo Kun of many karate schools, originating from Gichin Funakoshi himself. "First, seek perfection of character."

As to how it started, I'll leave it to others to parse out if they wish. Suffice to say, both pre- and post-WWII, several martial arts of Japanese/Okinawan extraction like karate and judo began incorporating more and more into their study, the idea that one should endeavor for self-improvement beyond the physical. We've just seen this evolve further along its natural lines where it's considered a matter of course that MA training is supposed to help people, particularly children, learn to be more ethical and kind people.

 

[Steve]

I agree with the thoughts so far. I posted this in the general area because I think that the situation is more than just BJJ. It has happened before in other arts, where hero worship causes problems.

The part that I think is most sinister is the hero worship and circling of the wagons that is occurring. Lloyd Irvin is a big name in BJJ. His marketing practices have polarized the community somewhat, but no one argues that he gets results. So, in this case, where two of his "medal chasers" (as he calls them), are implicated in a very bad situation, and it then comes out that Lloyd Irvin himself was involved in a similar case back in 1989, and that another rape occurred in 1991 with ties to him, there are many who are actually defending him. I don't get it.

Regarding Ryan Hall, I didn't get that message from him at all, oftheherd1. What I took from Ryan Hall's open letter is that there are really only about 9 people who know him well enough to know whether he is a "good guy" or not. The call to action was to think for yourself, and consider how well you really know your coach/sifu/sensei. What do you really know about him or her? If he or she is polite to you at the school, treats you with respect and in a way that makes you feel welcoming, that's just good business. But that doesn't mean you know whether he is a good person or not.

In fact, he says in his open letter that while he believes he's a good person, he would expect each of his students to make their own decisions. That's the point.

 

[James Kovacich]

I think it comes from the fantasy that our arts are "pure". Our arts "founders" are almost worshiped I know every dojo I've been in usually has a picture of its founder. People can't picture that these were normal men some were good some were not. Some were just like people today drunks and criminals.
So people forget that they were just people. So they look the same at martial artists we should all have higher standards. When in reality were just normal people some good some bad some drunks and criminals.
I know my teacher jas refused to teach people he thought were there for other then honorable reasons. Some schools wouldnt do that.

True they were just people but the founders are the origen. Having a Kamiza (I might of butchered that word) is a traditional way of paying respect.

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[MJS]

Unfortunately this sort of crap isn't just a BJJ phenomenon.

Sad but true. I'm sure we've all heard stories of similar things happening in schools around the world. Its also a shame that people who you think are your friends and training partners, will take advantage of you.

 

[Tgace]

For all of the talk about joining MA for "self-improvement", character development and all that other stuff...what I think the real draw for (too) many people is the hierarchical structure and the sense of "power" over other people; either in rank or in superior fighting skills. People want to climb the rank ladder so that they can have people under them. Perhaps its not a conscious thing...maybe sometimes it is.

 

[Steve]

For all of the talk about joining MA for "self-improvement", character development and all that other stuff...what I think the real draw for (too) many people is the hierarchical structure and the sense of "power" over other people; either in rank or in superior fighting skills. People want to climb the rank ladder so that they can have people under them. Perhaps its not a conscious thing...maybe sometimes it is.

Those are people I tend to avoid.

 

[ballen0351]

True they were just people but the founders are the origen. Having a Kamiza (I might of butchered that word) is a traditional way of paying respect.

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I agree and have no issue with paying respect but sometimes I think people take it to far. They look at them almost god like. Im a Goju guy so for example Ive heard people speak of Chojun Miyagi Sensei as like the perfect human to ever walk on earth yet people forget he was human he did things just like we do and he was far from perfect. It does not make Goju better or worse it just is.