Ranks, belts, certificates. O..my!!!

[TKDTony2179]

I am trying to understand all this rank and certificate stuff that people are posting. I was looking at one thread one day and I am seeing where they was talking about ranks and what it mean to them and of course how long it takes to get a black belt but I am not going there. Ok I will. For instance I am seeing on a thread that it took like in Korea 1yr to get to bb but in the USA it is frown on. People talking about MC Dojos giving out belts but then Kukikwon schools in DC, Va, and MD are pricing black belts extremely high and having gups in between dan ranks. Honest I don’t see where training for a black belt for nunchucks or bo staff matters in this day in time. But do I know them? Yes. But do I plan on using them? If possible but I won’t need a black belt for that.
This is where I see a problem because if you are not testing long enough it is not good but then I see a problem when testing for color rank is one price and black belt is higher. We charge a flat rate. $50.00 It don’t change. If you pass, you do and if you don’t then you don’t. Simple! But I guess that is the ugly the business of this world of the martial arts.
Now here is another problem I am seeing. I looked at an older thread which was about belt rank and would you accept someone from a different org and would their rank transfer over and did the certificate matter. Some of you said sure they can keep their ranks and if the skill wasn’t up to part then you would back them down only for that reason. That is fair. What if the person just been out of for like 10yr but returned to continue their training but was just really rusty? Would they have to drop the rank?
Last thing is I was talking to a fellow student and he was talking about doing Olympic sparring. I said you are young and fast. Go for it. Then he told me that he wasn’t comfortable losing his rank. He was told by a friend of his that was part of the kukikwon org that yea he would have to because if you walk in as a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] degree, you would be skipping all the testing fees. He telling me it is the business side of it. I said ok but understand this you are not really losing rank. Someone else left our school and went to texas and when he found a tkd school it was kkw school and they dropped him from 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] to purple. I told the young 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] degree he may be a wearing a purple belt but he is still third degree and it will show.
In closing of this rant, I say this. When we walk out the door most people don’t know we are a black belt. So as long as we are taekwondo and our skills speak for itself then dropping rank should not be required. If I entered a judo school I wouldn’t bring my belt because my striking skills don’t matter cause it would grappling be and I can’t perform a good Uchi mata.

 

[Earl Weiss]

i actualy have a student who left as a 1st dan and came back 10 years later. He put on a white belt (his choice) . His knowwledge and abilities allowed him to double test for each gup rank and he re tested for 1st Dan. He is now a 4th Dan.

 

[Manny]

When I returned to TKD in 2007 for a stop of almost 12 years my new master allow me to keep my 1st dan black belt status cause he know my former master, we started form mid level (blue belt) relearning the taeguks and we progessed and progressed til 2010 when I earned my second degree black belt under my new master.

In the begining I wanted to tie a white belt on my belly and start from cero, but my master told me NO, that I was a BB and the only thing I needed was to get in shape and relearning some stuff.

Something I dislike is to test every two monthos for kup, I think the testing will have to be every six months as a minimum and the earning of the BB afther 4 years of full training, I don't like to go to fast in the kup or dan ladder.

Manny

 

[TKDTony2179]

i actualy have a student who left as a 1st dan and came back 10 years later. He put on a white belt (his choice) . His knowwledge and abilities allowed him to double test for each gup rank and he re tested for 1st Dan. He is now a 4th Dan.

But was it really worth it? And was it taekwondo and a different org?

 

[TKDTony2179]

When I returned to TKD in 2007 for a stop of almost 12 years my new master allow me to keep my 1st dan black belt status cause he know my former master, we started form mid level (blue belt) relearning the taeguks and we progessed and progressed til 2010 when I earned my second degree black belt under my new master.

In the begining I wanted to tie a white belt on my belly and start from cero, but my master told me NO, that I was a BB and the only thing I needed was to get in shape and relearning some stuff.

Something I dislike is to test every two monthos for kup, I think the testing will have to be every six months as a minimum and the earning of the BB afther 4 years of full training, I don't like to go to fast in the kup or dan ladder.

Manny

I can see what you mean. We had someone restart as well. But he restarted because his son had started and it was a journey for both of them.


But I see what the master said. You was just rusty.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

i actualy have a student who left as a 1st dan and came back 10 years later. He put on a white belt (his choice) .

To me the big factor is whether the person stayed thin (or not too fat), stretched, and did some kicking. If so, it should be straightforward to step back into class at the old belt, although the "memory" items like patterns or 1 step sparring patterns may be forgotten.

 

[Jaeimseu]

If the number 1 concern of a potential new student is rank, that's maybe a red flag for me. I understand not wanting to go down, but why is it such a big concern? For kids I can certainly understand, but for adults? Especially for really low dan grades. You know what you know, and if you stick with the program rank will come.

In our dojang we get lots of people who trained and received black belts as kids and have been out for a while. They wear white belts until they test/demonstrate that they know the material up to their actual rank, at which time they receive a new black belt. The amount of time spent wearing a white belt varies from person to person. I've yet to see anyone make a big deal out of it, though 1st dan is not a big deal at all here, no one wears rank stripes on their belt, and no one is too concerned about what dan someone has.

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[TKDTony2179]

If the number 1 concern of a potential new student is rank, that's maybe a red flag for me. I understand not wanting to go down, but why is it such a big concern? For kids I can certainly understand, but for adults? Especially for really low dan grades. You know what you know, and if you stick with the program rank will come.

In our dojang we get lots of people who trained and received black belts as kids and have been out for a while. They wear white belts until they test/demonstrate that they know the material up to their actual rank, at which time they receive a new black belt. The amount of time spent wearing a white belt varies from person to person. I've yet to see anyone make a big deal out of it, though 1st dan is not a big deal at all here, no one wears rank stripes on their belt, and no one is too concerned about what dan someone has.

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But what if you got someone that moved or just in town for some months and wanted to come in to train and the rank was 3rd. Would you ask to show skills or tell them to join the beginning class?

 

[TKDTony2179]

Ok I am hearing alot of people say that someone either started over on their own or if they was out for a while asked to wear a white belt until proper skill was shown.

I guess I was under the impression that if I am a rank in an TKD that it dont change but if I went from tkd to karate then I would like start over. Or karate to kung fu I start over. Now I am guessing that kyonkinshin and goju ryu art two different styles. One more sport and the other is more like traditional. Both karate but rank don't transfer. Does this apply for TKD? For instance, if I come to Earl Weiss school doing Yon Gae tul would I not be allowed my third degree rank because I dont do sine wave? I know bout the kukiky, but since my sparring and forms are more like the ITF does it matter what org I started with? I know I went to a ATF couple of times and I didnt drop dank. Wondering bout others now.

 

[Jaeimseu]

But what if you got someone that moved or just in town for some months and wanted to come in to train and the rank was 3rd. Would you ask to show skills or tell them to join the beginning class?

Honestly, if someone is only going to train for a few months I probably wouldn't get into rank with them. I'd likely take them at their word regarding their ecperience and not put them in the beginner class. If they were only visiting the school for a short time, I'd let them wear whatever belt they had.

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[Jaeimseu]

Ok I am hearing alot of people say that someone either started over on their own or if they was out for a while asked to wear a white belt until proper skill was shown.

I guess I was under the impression that if I am a rank in an TKD that it dont change but if I went from tkd to karate then I would like start over. Or karate to kung fu I start over. Now I am guessing that kyonkinshin and goju ryu art two different styles. One more sport and the other is more like traditional. Both karate but rank don't transfer. Does this apply for TKD? For instance, if I come to Earl Weiss school doing Yon Gae tul would I not be allowed my third degree rank because I dont do sine wave? I know bout the kukiky, but since my sparring and forms are more like the ITF does it matter what org I started with? I know I went to a ATF couple of times and I didnt drop dank. Wondering bout others now.

As for the way I have handled this in the past, I have always accepted a student's TKD rank, regardless of association. If they are joining my school, then I expect them to learn my system, so they'd need to learn the appropriate material up to their rank and learn how to do the techniques and stances my way. In my case, "my" way would mean the Kukkiwon way. So their time in grade before they come to me is largely irrelevant.

Being a Kukkiwon school, I'd help them get Kukkiwon dan certification. I'd either help them through the "skip dan" process in the case of a non 1st dan or they could get their Kukkiwon 1st dan and start their time in grade again.

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[Earl Weiss]

Ok I For instance, if I come to Earl Weiss school doing Yon Gae tul would I not be allowed my third degree rank because I dont do sine wave? I know bout the kukiky, but since my sparring and forms are more like the ITF does it matter what org I started with? I know I went to a ATF couple of times and I didnt drop dank. Wondering bout others now.

As a visitor you most definitely keep your rank. AS a permanent transfer you most likely keep your rank . You would not advance until you had the knowledge and abilities needed for the next rank.

 

[ATC]

Someone else left our school and went to texas and when he found a tkd school it was kkw school and they dropped him from 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] to purple. I told the young 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] degree he may be a wearing a purple belt but he is still third degree and it will show.

Your statement is a very myopic way of looking at this issue. Yes in that school or org you are a 3rd degree, but only that school or org. And more only to that school. Even schools within the same org may have vastly different standards. Now if in the same org you may not be able to take away the rank if you don't think the person is up to school standards, but you will not promote him/her until they are.

We had a 2nd dan come and join our school and he was clearly not a 2nd dan. Had no flexibility, could not kick with accuracy, power, speed, or anything. Did not have any good stances, no did he perform his forms well. He was not a leader by any means. Could not even lead a class or teach one on one. But he had a 2nd dan. We did not take that dan as he was from the same org, but he will not test for his next dan for quite some time, years even. But if he came from a different org he would have started as a 3rd Gup maybe. He is still with us (2 years now) and has gotten better but still so far from a 2nd dan. Just because someone says your are something, doesn't mean you are. Many times people get promoted just for money.

Many times it will show that you are not also.

 

[WaterGal]

Ok I am hearing alot of people say that someone either started over on their own or if they was out for a while asked to wear a white belt until proper skill was shown.

I guess I was under the impression that if I am a rank in an TKD that it dont change but if I went from tkd to karate then I would like start over. Or karate to kung fu I start over. Now I am guessing that kyonkinshin and goju ryu art two different styles. One more sport and the other is more like traditional. Both karate but rank don't transfer. Does this apply for TKD? For instance, if I come to Earl Weiss school doing Yon Gae tul would I not be allowed my third degree rank because I dont do sine wave? I know bout the kukiky, but since my sparring and forms are more like the ITF does it matter what org I started with? I know I went to a ATF couple of times and I didnt drop dank. Wondering bout others now.

I feel like that probably depends on the school. We've had some experienced TSD students transfer to our (KKW TKD) school, and what we've done is to start them at white belt and then basically give them a crash course in the KKW forms and WTF sparring and then let them test directly for a higher-level color belt after a few months. We've had a couple of their dans talk to us, and while they haven't signed up, what the plan is is to basically do the same thing but let them wear their belt until they do the KKW dan test and we give them a new one.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

We had a 2nd dan come and join our school and he was clearly not a 2nd dan. Had no flexibility, could not kick with accuracy, power, speed, or anything. Did not have any good stances, no did he perform his forms well. He was not a leader by any means. Could not even lead a class or teach one on one. But he had a 2nd dan... Just because someone says your are something, doesn't mean you are. Many times people get promoted just for money.

Many times it will show that you are not also.

The age old question, and I say this is a funny way: "how bad can you suck and get promoted?".

 

[Rumy73]

Making an adult go down in rank who earned a bb, left the art and has returned is fubar. Wear the belt one has earned and take time to get back up to speed. Retesting is OK so long as the person is not being charged. If person is charged for a test he already passed, that school is scum.